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Native American myths/traditions support Bigfoot? A critical look.

Kitz, the hupas, who know its real, shouldnt have to prove to you its real. If you want to find out, go look for yourself
 
makaya325 said:
Kitz, the hupas, who know its real, shouldnt have to prove to you its real. If you want to find out, go look for yourself
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Makaya, please don't evade these questions:

kitakaze said:
Have you examined the research I've done? Can you tell me one example of the lore you were told about Oh-Mah? What tales refer to him as a good sign? If he was encountered by many then why no remains?
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kitakaze said:
Makaya, is this the Hupa tribal group to which you belong?:

http://www.hoopa-nsn.gov/

ETA: And have you ever heard or seen the word "tintah-k'iwungxoya'n?"
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You are at a skeptic's forum. The questions I am asking are meant to establish what exactly it is that the Hupa know and what it is that you know. What you are doing now is attempting to skirt the issue. I have shown research that shows the Hupa historically regarded the Oh-Mah as a devil/sorcerer-type figure. This is before anglo influence regarding Bigfoot. We're dealing in specifics now so don't be frightened of some straight open dialogue on the subject.
 
makaya325 said:
Kitz, the hupas, who know its real, shouldnt have to prove to you its real. If you want to find out, go look for yourself
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Yes, they should. If they maintain something is true, the onus is on them, or you as it were.

And honestly, if we are to believe your interpretation of their views, some documentation or supporting evidence would be nice. Right now all we have to believe that the Hupas as a people believe in the existence of bigfoot is your word. What we have to show this is not the case is a lot of well source research by kitakaze.

When I presented the stone giants as not being a bigfoot legend, I was rightful asked for sources, which I provided. If you have no source besides a handful of Hupas, who can't just change their people's documented stories because they want to and claim it was always that way, then that is fine. It's ok to be mistaken. There are plenty of white people who are mistaken about their history and stories too.
 
The Oh-Mah of the Hupa is not any kind of Bigfoot. Once again I will link to the research:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3389527&postcount=60

The Oh-Mah is the Raak nee 'ue-ma-'ah, the sorcerer creek devils "were thought to live in dark, bushy thickets, and they had magical arrows of burning flint with which they could kill someone who passed nearby." In none of the research that I have done have I found any reference to the Oh-Mah being something other than these sorcerer creek devils until later in the twentieth century, and then only in Bigfoot enthusiast sources. It would seem the retconning of Oh-Mah as Bigfoot is a cultural contamination distorting the nature of the original tales.

It has also been said in certain Bigfoot sources (mostly Bobbie Short's Bigfoot Encounters) that the Hupa know Bigfoot as "tintah-k'iwungxoya'n" (translates to the old man of the woods). It is my contention that Bigfoot is something created by North Americans of European descent. During the twentieth century when Bigfoot became a cultural phenomenom and many Bigfoot enthusiasts felt sure they would find correlaries in native mythology, they pushed the idea on various groups in an appeal to their "ancient wisdom." Some of these groups abided in offering whatever might seem closest. Indeed I have found once again a native language resource having an entry for Bigfoot (the first time was Salish).

From the Hupa language text Now You're Speaking - Hupa under the section heading "Little Friends" between Grizzly and Coyote

Bigfoot - tintah k'iwungxoya:n
woods / old man

http://dscholar.humboldt.edu:8080/dspace/bitstream/2148/39/1/SpeakingHupa.pdf

So is Bigfoot one of the Hupa's "little friends" or are we to find more to the story? To do this we must find out about the Old Man of the Woods and if any traditional tales might be able to found from a time before we should expect Bigfoot contamination. It is important to note here that the Hupa are of the Athabaskan language group and thus have shared traditions and tales with other peoples in this language group.

A tale of the Old Man of the Woods comes from Pliny Earle Goddard's 1906 Journal of American Folklore, nine narratives collected in 1903 and under the heading "Lassik Tales".

She and her grandchild alone were not killed. A piece of tan oak bark had fallen over him and hidden him. The old woman made her grandchild swim. "My poor grandchild," she said. "He will grow up to avenge his grandfather."

She heard him give a shout and then he ran into the house and picked up the big knife. "What is it, my grandchild?" she asked. " 'Gun kuk, gun gun,' it said as it was jumping on a log," replied the boy. "Well done! gray squirrel it is called. People eat that kind, my grandson." Another time he gave a shout and ran in. "What is it, my grandchild?" asked the old woman. "Somebody is pawing dirt over himself," replied the boy. "Good for you, my grandchild," said his grandmother. Putting the big knife in the burden-basket he started away.

Old man of the woods, who had been setting snares during a time of low-lying fog, captured the boy and carried him off.
"Bring some water," he was commanded. "You will be killed," he heard a scalp say. He ran away over the ridge holloaing. The old man heard him and gave chase. He came to his grandmother's home. "Come in, my grandchild," she said. "Come in, my brother-in-law," she said to the old man when he appeared. "Let us gamble," she suggested to him. While they were playing, she killed him.
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Source: Goddard, Pliny Earle."Lassik Tales."Journal of American Folk-Lore.. Vol. XIX, No. LXXIII, (Apr.-Jun.1906), p.133-140.

http://www.talesunlimited.com/fulltext.asp?taleid=1611&search_criteria=N0

This tale comes from the Eel River Athapaskan traditional narratives (myths, legends, tales, and oral histories) of the Pomo people of south and central California. They have important influences from the Hupa, Yurok, and Karuk.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eel_River_Athapaskan_traditional_narratives

It doesn't seem that the Old man of the Woods strikes us as any kind of 8ft bipedal beast but rather nothing more than a type of hermit. Once again I fail to find any traditonal connection between the Hupa and Bigfoot.
 
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Are you aware that the names are things as "hairy one", skookum, sasquatch, Kecleh-Kudleh, Yi' dyi'tay, Xi'lgo, Bukwas, Chiye tanka, Neginla eh, Wsinkhoalican?
 
makaya325 said:
Are you aware that the names are things as "hairy one", skookum, sasquatch, Kecleh-Kudleh, Yi' dyi'tay, Xi'lgo, Bukwas, Chiye tanka, Neginla eh, Wsinkhoalican?
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I promise you if you even attempt to read the first couple pages of the thread, you won't go blind.
 
Kitz, before i do that, check this out

http://web.ncf.ca/bz050/HomePage.bfna.html


But, special being as he is, I have never heard anyone from a Northwestern tribe suggest that Bigfoot is anything other than a physical being, living in the same physical dimensions as humans and other animals. He eats, he sleeps, he poops, he cares for his family members. However, among many Indians elsewhere in North America... as widely separated at the Hopi, the Sioux, the Iroquois, and the Northern Athabascan -- Bigfoot is seen more as a sort of supernatural or spirit being, whose appearance to humans is always meant to convey some kind of message."
 
makaya325 said:
Kitz, before i do that, check this out

http://web.ncf.ca/bz050/HomePage.bfna.html
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You can learn more about Gayle Highpine and Henry Franzoni by doing the reading the first few pages of this thread. You won't go blind and it will prevent you looking silly.


But, special being as he is, I have never heard anyone from a Northwestern tribe suggest that Bigfoot is anything other than a physical being, living in the same physical dimensions as humans and other animals.
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Prepare for disappointment.

Now tell me about Bukwas.
 
Why do you ignore what we've discussed and researched about her word?

ETA: Don't forget to tell me about bukwas.
 
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Kitz, your telling me, that out of every tribe you "researched", not one regards squatch as a real animal? Do you even bother to talk face to face with natives? Or do you rely on the internet?
 
makaya325 said:
Kitz, your telling me, that out of every tribe you "researched", not one regards squatch as a real animal? Do you even bother to talk face to face with natives? Or do you rely on the internet?
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Please don't sidestep. I asked you something specific. Read the thread if you have questions about the research. No tribe I've come across has traditional narratives of Bigfoot. As for speaking with natives face to face, I have done so often in the past. You will note by the location heading to the right of this post that there are geographical limitations to who I can talk to face to face.
 
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Limitations? So im assuming you havent spoke with ALL of the tribes. Maybe if you did, the view would change dramatically. Every native american tribe has lore of a "large, hairy man"
 
makaya325 said:
Limitations? So im assuming you havent spoke with ALL of the tribes.
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Nor have I looked behind every tree and in every bush for Bigfoot. I'm not interested in proving a negative, only in addressing what claims are being put forward.

Maybe if you did, the view would change dramatically. Every native american tribe has lore of a "large, hairy man"
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Then you should have no problem providing evidence that every native american tribe has lore of a "large, hairy man."

Now stop evading and tell me about bukwas and try answering some of the very simple questions I asked you. If your Bigfoot beliefs are built on solid foundations you will have no problem doing this. I predict you will not.
 
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makaya325 said:
Wild Man of the Woods, "Tall Burnt Hair, Night People", Big Elder Brother" Bushman, Hairy Savage,

http://home.clara.net/rfthomas/papers/rigsby.html
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Thanks for showing you haven't even bothered to read the opening post of this thread. Lets look back at the bukwus or "Chief of the Ghosts."

From the Burke Museum of Natural History and Culture:

Like the Dzoonokwa, Bukwus is a wild creature of the woods. Described as a "chief of the ghosts", he tempts travellers to eat his food, which transforms them into wild spirits like himself. The Bukwus dance is performed during the Tlasula.
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https://www.washington.edu/burkemuse...y.php?ID=93120

From northwestcoastnativeartists.com:

Bukwus, the wild man of the woods, is a supernatural ghost like figure. He is associated with the spirits of people who have drowned. He lives in an invisible house in the forest and attracts the spirits of those who have drowned to his home.

Bukwus also tries to persuade humans to eat ghost food so that they will become like him. The Bukwus was a significant character for the Kwakiutl people.
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http://www.northwestcoastnativeartis...bolsDetail=008

This thread also has a detailed examination of the "Stick-Indians" boogeymen and many other so-called Bigfoot myths. Since you said you wanted to learn, I'm having a hard time understanding why you couldn't even be bothered to read the OP of the thread you are posting in.

ETA: Also, I asked for evidence that every Native American tribe has lore of a "large, hairy man." Where is it?
 
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