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How 9/11 was done

So you're not even trying any more?

I see you are suffering from a limited memory span. After all it was you who was inquiring if 'Santa' had not forgotten me.

Your question offered a nice opportunity to confront the forum readers with the reality of remote controlled airplanes, even as a toy in the hands of children for only a few hundred dollars.

That was an opportunity I could not let go. I thank you for that. Now if you don't mind I return to the warm and cosy reality of the holiday season.
 
If that is your blog, perhaps you'd like to explain this:

In order to bring 9/11 to a close one has to speculate and theorize; there is no way around it. And once a tested theory has been produced the truth movement should go in the attack mode.
 
A few interesting sites

Wow. The thread grew while I was travelling. :)

And can you point to any evidence saying not that the Mossad has the ability to perform such eavesdropping and information-manipulative feats, but actually did do so for that event? Doing so would strengthen the thesis that such technology was indeed used in the manner you assert.

Might I suggest researching the capabilities, (far beyond the official line), of Ptech, AMDOCS and Comverse.

Ptech: http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=86105

AMDOS and Comverse: http://100777.com/node/180

Also of interst: http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/ICTS.html

And: http://100777.com/node/355

And another potential piece of the puzzle: http://redlineav.com/tsg.deposition.contd.2.html

And the troubling $100,000 payment to Atta, unmentioned by the 911 Commission: http://globalresearch.ca/articles/KUP209B.html

And for those that relish in blaming Clinton: http://www.consortiumnews.com/2006/032306.html

And an intersting rabbit hole to explore: http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0208/S00085.htm
 
Might I suggest researching the capabilities, (far beyond the official line), of Ptech, AMDOCS and Comverse.

1. You are not bringing any thing new to the table. Not in this place. All of the information you've brought up has been discussed at length here. This is more for the lurkers than anything else.

2. How exactly would you suggest researching "far beyond the official line" of those technologies? Last time I checked, soliciting classified information is a federal offense. Knowing the capabilities and Limitations of these systems would be beneficial to an adversary. Are you implying that you have technical data unavailable to the general public? Think VERY hard before you answer. You are on very thin ice with that statement.

3. This thread has been more or less 9/11investigator's theories and discussion around them. I'd have to say your link-posting spatter qualifies as a derail in a moderated thread.
 
Might I suggest researching the capabilities, (far beyond the official line), of Ptech, AMDOCS and Comverse.

Ptech: http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=86105

AMDOS and Comverse: http://100777.com/node/180

Also of interst: http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/ICTS.html

And: http://100777.com/node/355

And another potential piece of the puzzle: http://redlineav.com/tsg.deposition.contd.2.html

And the troubling $100,000 payment to Atta, unmentioned by the 911 Commission: http://globalresearch.ca/articles/KUP209B.html

And for those that relish in blaming Clinton: http://www.consortiumnews.com/2006/032306.html

And an intersting rabbit hole to explore: http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0208/S00085.htm

I hate abusing stupid internet clichés, but: Epic fail. The only link to even remotely address my question was the second one, and it too only makes vague, unsourced and unsupported allegations about the existence of the technology. It doesn't even come close to establishing its use in the leadup to 9/11. And most of your other links don't even address eavesdropping technology whatsoever, they just rehash the same silly allegations - like the supposed payment to Atta - that have made the rounds here time and time again.

So, I'll repeat myself, and address this to you as well as 9/11-investigator: Can you point at any evidence whatsoever saying not that the Mossad has the ability to perform such eavesdropping and information-manipulative feats, but actually did do so for that event? The links you provided don't come close, and some of them don't even address eavesdropping technology. Which makes me wonder why you included them, seeing as how they didn't address the point!
 
I hate abusing stupid internet clichés, but: Epic fail. The only link to even remotely address my question was the second one, and it too only makes vague, unsourced and unsupported allegations about the existence of the technology. It doesn't even come close to establishing its use in the leadup to 9/11.

So, I'll repeat myself, and address this to you as well as 9/11-investigator: Can you point at any evidence whatsoever saying not that the Mossad has the ability to perform such eavesdropping and information-manipulative feats, but actually did do so for that event? The links you provided don't come close, and some of them don't even address eavesdropping technology. Which makes me wonder why you included them, seeing as how they didn't address the point!

The additional links were provided for a broader overview.

And do I take it that you actually deny/dismiss the payment to lead hijacker Atta by Omar Saeed Sheikh in the days/weeks before the 911 attacks, authorized by Pakistani intelligence chief, General Mahnoud Ahmed? If so, please offer a reliable link.

Interesting that you seem either unaware that a record of nearly every phone call in America generates a record with the Israeli owned company AMDOCS, or that that technology could be used to wiretap. Based on the information provided to me by several, (independent), investigators, this aspect of AMDOCS' capability is not in dispute. Further, would you actually expect that an Israeli owned and operated company, operating in the US with such breadth and scope, would openly tout their capabilities?

I suppose your reasoning is correct, though. The most underhanded, ruthless and sophisticated crime syndicate on the planet earth would have 24 hour-per-day access to my company's internal operations, but they aren't possibly the ones that used that access, (because that would be illegal and immoral), to facilitate the crime of the century that benefitted their cause in spectacular fashion and with immeasureable manufacture of long-sought public perceptions. Yeah, it doesn't make sense - why would the Israelis want to be a part of any plot to villanize the Arabs/Muslims?

And if one were to produce conclusive proof that these techniques and technologies were used as an aspect of the 911 mass murder, we wouldn't be having this discussion, would we? I strongly suspect that one or more persons with loose lips would be no longer available.

After all, sans an eye witness or a confession, a dead body, blood and fingerprints on the murder weapon, means, motive and opportunity by the accused are not proof either, are they? Judges, prosecutors and juries must infer, deduct and extrapolate - an crucial aspect of juris prudence referred to as the preponderance of the available evidence - long-accepted for thousands of years. That's how crimes are solved and the guilty are held accountable. Although not perfect in it's function, with meaningful examination of all evidence, the concept is remarkably reliable.

I do not imply that I have any specialized knowledge. I don't work for any intelligence agency nor am I a government insider. I, like everyone, must assess the same bevy of contradictory and often inane excuses/apologies offered to the public immediately following the 911 attacks. I am also limited to the absurd explanations officially offered for a variety of the aspects surrounding the mass murder, in addition to the systemic obfuscations, half-baked conclusions and fairly tales woven into American mythology by the 911 commission. Any so called "investigative body" that publicly sets the tone - in it's abstract, from the onset - that "we are not out to blame anyone", and later, states within it's final report that "the financing of the 911 attacks is, ultimately, of little importance", would not only make a second-rate insurance investigator laugh hysterically but make my [at the time] 8th grade nephew nearly fall off of his chair upon hearing both of these pronouncements. By sidestepping a wide variety of inconvenient facts, contradicory testimony and incompatible timelines, I can single-handedly implicate and convict Lee Harvey Oswald for the murder of Jimmy Hoffa.

And if I had the far-reaching political motive and power to select the members of a committee to not only investigate - but lacking any semblence of sensible evidentiary adversarial challange - to proclaim and pronounce conclusions, I could convict Hoffa for Oswald's murder in the public mind. I personally guarantee it.

I've found that in accepting the official version of the 911 attacks, by and large, one or more prominent mindsets must be present: a) a remarkable willingness to support and trust mechanisms of a hierarchy, (the US government/political apparatus), that is, by it's very nature, infected with secrecy and deception, especially at the highest levels in furtherence of it's overall function, or 2) a remarkable inability, (or pro-active denial), to grasp only the basic methods by which this institutional conglomerate allows very small numbers of high-level figures with enormous official powers to further unseen agendas, and 3) a pronounced proclivity to utterly dismiss a history, both on the national and international stages, that is littered with examples of public opinion manipulation in pursuit of intrigues on immense scale, that would otherwise be unattainable.

Remember Vietnam? Remember the claims of Iraq's WMD? Iraq's alleged al Qaeda connection? Speaking directly to the point regarding our friends, the Israelis, remember the Mossad and the Levon affair? The USS Liberty affair? The 200 Mossad, (or former Mossad), spies rounded up post-911? I know, all unrelated and a matter of coincident.

I would safely assert that, with a rich history of Mossad/Israeli agendas readily available for the genuinely concerned/interested, you are sorely unaware of the ruthless efficiency, unrelenting focus and methodology of the Mossad organization. Or - possibly- you are aware, indeed. Now there's a
thought.

But you make a compelling point. Just because a rogue bear has eaten campers in a given area before, the evidence implicating the bear in the latest camper's half-eaten body is scant. After all, with no eye witnesses or confessions, we have to be fair to the bear.
 
The additional links were provided for a broader overview.

And do I... :words:

Your allegation of Israelis supposedly wiretapping every American phone was already discussed earlier in this thread, and like 9/11-investigator, you too do not provide any evidence that this actually occurred. We're all bored with people purporting the mere existence of the technology as proof that it was actually used in the manner alleged. Move a step beyond that. Demonstrate that it was actually used. And no, saying that a company would not publish actual implementations of its capabilities is not an argument. It's a cop out. It's a demonstration that you have no reason for your unsupported belief that the company was involved aside from the fact that they're owned by Israelis. Basing your argument on that is not only weak and ignorant, it's racist. It's making a claim that someone or some group is involved in a crime not based on evidence linking them to the crime, but on the basis of their nationality. Such an argument doesn't even use logic, it merely leans on prejudice.

The allegation of payments from the ISI to Atta known by the US were based on a single, anonymous, unconfirmed story in the Times of India newspaper. The only thing that is established beyond doubt is that a man named Omar Sheikh transferred money to Atta over a period of time. There's no proof that even the ISI was involved, let alone that the Americans knew, and if the ISI was invovled, no one would be surprised. That this Pakistani intelligence organization funds terrorists is as well know as where the sun rises; it's been demonstrated over and over again since the US invaded Afghanistan. What you have failed to do is what every other truther has failed to do: Establish that the money transfers from Sheikh to Atta were done with American knowledge. Without that, congratulations: You've established that someone paid a terrorist, but you've not established that the US government knew anything about it before 9/11.

You want a link? Here's one. It's from using the search function for this forum to look up the discussions from 06, 07, and last year on this matter. From here on out, do your own research. And do it with credible sources, not ones that rely on truther authors.

And what's with this stupid analogy of a bear-eaten camper? You don't provide a dead camper or even proof that anyone has died, let alone was eaten by a bear, you don't establish he was ever even in the woods. All you post are articles equivalent to saying "bears eat". That doesn't establish anything. Your post is unimpressive, unsupported, and unproven. I can't even say it's poorly argued because it wasn't even argued at all. You merely spammed links which did not answer the question. Once again: Can you point at any evidence whatsoever saying not that the Mossad has the ability to perform such eavesdropping and information-manipulative feats, but actually did do so for that event? The links you provided don't come close, and again, most of them don't even address eavesdropping technology. If you cannot established that this occurred, if you cannot even point at any indication that it did, why then would you believe that it did? Why say something occurred when you have no evidence that it did? And why argue that the belief is fact when you have nothing to support the belief?

Establish that such acts truly occurred, or admit your argument is unsupported. And quit resorting to the tired old "argue everything but the main point" method of "proving" your point. Show evidence saying that the Israeli company truly did intercept phone calls from hijack victims. Show that these calls really were used to voice morph and fool family members into thinking their loved ones were on hijacked airliners. Don't answer the question "How were victims calls intercepted before 9/11?" by verbosely claiming "Wiretapping technology exists, and look, Mohammhed Atta was paid $100,000". None of that answers the original question.
 
And do I take it that you actually deny/dismiss the payment to lead hijacker Atta by Omar Saeed Sheikh in the days/weeks before the 911 attacks, authorized by Pakistani intelligence chief, General Mahnoud Ahmed? If so, please offer a reliable link.
Yes we do.

And if one were to produce conclusive proof that these techniques and technologies were used as an aspect of the 911 mass murder, we wouldn't be having this discussion, would we? I strongly suspect that one or more persons with loose lips would be no longer available.
Yet those that exposed other government crimes are somehow alive. Add to that the fact that those that are "exposing the truth" about 9/11 are also alive. So your allegation is baseless.
After all, sans an eye witness or a confession, a dead body, blood and fingerprints on the murder weapon, means, motive and opportunity by the accused are not proof either, are they? Judges, prosecutors and juries must infer, deduct and extrapolate - an crucial aspect of juris prudence referred to as the preponderance of the available evidence - long-accepted for thousands of years. That's how crimes are solved and the guilty are held accountable. Although not perfect in it's function, with meaningful examination of all evidence, the concept is remarkably reliable.
While this is true, this does not apply to 9/11. There is a plethora of evidence that completey supports the "official version." There is zero, nothing, nada to support anything that you and the rest of the terrorist apologist claim to even come close to passing the preponderance of evidence test. All you have is speculation and conjecture backed up by cherrypicking snippets of information and outright lies. This never works in a court of law.
I do not imply that I have any specialized knowledge. I don't work for any intelligence agency nor am I a government insider. I, like everyone, must assess the same bevy of contradictory and often inane excuses/apologies offered to the public immediately following the 911 attacks. I am also limited to the absurd explanations officially offered for a variety of the aspects surrounding the mass murder, in addition to the systemic obfuscations, half-baked conclusions and fairly tales woven into American mythology by the 911 commission. Any so called "investigative body" that publicly sets the tone - in it's abstract, from the onset - that "we are not out to blame anyone", and later, states within it's final report that "the financing of the 911 attacks is, ultimately, of little importance", would not only make a second-rate insurance investigator laugh hysterically but make my [at the time] 8th grade nephew nearly fall off of his chair upon hearing both of these pronouncements. By sidestepping a wide variety of inconvenient facts, contradicory testimony and incompatible timelines, I can single-handedly implicate and convict Lee Harvey Oswald for the murder of Jimmy Hoffa.
You, like the rest of your ilk, claim that the 9/11 commission was the only investigative body looking into what happened on 9/11. You ignore the investigations by the FBI, NSA, FAA, CIA, NTSB, etc. since that would invalidate your fantasy.
I've found that in accepting the official version of the 911 attacks, by and large, one or more prominent mindsets must be present: a) a remarkable willingness to support and trust mechanisms of a hierarchy, (the US government/political apparatus), that is, by it's very nature, infected with secrecy and deception, especially at the highest levels in furtherence of it's overall function, or 2) a remarkable inability, (or pro-active denial), to grasp only the basic methods by which this institutional conglomerate allows very small numbers of high-level figures with enormous official powers to further unseen agendas, and 3) a pronounced proclivity to utterly dismiss a history, both on the national and international stages, that is littered with examples of public opinion manipulation in pursuit of intrigues on immense scale, that would otherwise be unattainable.
Yet you completely accept what known liars, anti-semites, etc. spew forth without question. You are the very person you accuse us of being.
 
Yes we do.

Yet those that exposed other government crimes are somehow alive. Add to that the fact that those that are "exposing the truth" about 9/11 are also alive. So your allegation is baseless.
While this is true, this does not apply to 9/11. There is a plethora of evidence that completey supports the "official version." There is zero, nothing, nada to support anything that you and the rest of the terrorist apologist claim to even come close to passing the preponderance of evidence test. All you have is speculation and conjecture backed up by cherrypicking snippets of information and outright lies. This never works in a court of law.
You, like the rest of your ilk, claim that the 9/11 commission was the only investigative body looking into what happened on 9/11. You ignore the investigations by the FBI, NSA, FAA, CIA, NTSB, etc. since that would invalidate your fantasy.
Yet you completely accept what known liars, anti-semites, etc. spew forth without question. You are the very person you accuse us of being.

I will state flatly, once more. I am not an insider, nor do I pretend to be. Nor do I have access to the technical capabilities of a company that has a record of nearly any phone call made in the United States. But the fact that "back doors" in the system exist is not in dispute with any meaningful understanding of immense, specialized and sophisticated electronic systems.

And if the fact that AMDOCS receives a large portion of its operating budget from the Israeli government is a matter dismissed as on the periphery, and with a meaningful grasp of the methodology and effectiveness of the Israeli government's Mossad means nothing to the casual, uninformed observer, the AMDOCS connection can be discounted - out of hand.

I, however, am not a casual observer. And it wasn't the French, the Japanese or the Icelanders with these capabilities and well-documented agendas. Otherwise, my focus would be appropriately modified.

And, lordy, the antisemitic angle is so tired these days. Are you aware that the vast majority of Jews are opposed to the Zionist agenda? The carefully designed caveats surrounding Jewry bore me - and any reasonable suspect in a crime is fair game, regardless of nationality or religion.

And please, in a sensible discussion, referring to me as a person denying the presence of actual Muslim fanatics at the center of the hijackings is presumptuous, at best. I made no such claim. Yes, there were planes that fateful day - and no, there were likely no death rays nor alien intervention.

Now - for a few salient observations.

First, I made no such implication that the 911 investigative commission was the only investigation into the 911 attacks. Equating me with, and reducing me to "an ilk: is - well - silly.

Second, you make reference to lies. Interesting. Is it a lie to withhold the truth? To dismiss vital facts, inconsistencies and contradictions in order to create a body of truth? If so, the 911 commission is the unchallenged tour de force -- likely in all of recorded human history.

Third, the suspects in the failures investigating themselves. Brilliant premise at its foundation. Police investigating the police is always a reliable way to get to the truth, and put all suspicions to rest -- don't you think?

Now, the FAA as an investigative body, with itself as a potential target? Are you joking? Really?
Is this the same FAA that the 911 commission harshly criticized for failing in a task that it performs routinely, (timely reporting of and location of errant aircraft), and yet praised for doing what had never been done before, (safely emptying the skies of all aircraft after the 911 attacks)? The same FAA that had a shift supervisor at the center of operations when the 911 attacks were in progress, that later intentionally destroyed a tape recording made by six air traffic controllers in order to document the facts of that critical morning - and scattered the remains of the tape recording in various, on-site trash cans? The same FAA that didn't mention this fact in their "investigation"? Of course, we can all be rest assured that no other inconvenient details were omitted, right?

The FBI investigation? Is this the same FBI, or a different one, that fired Sibel Edmunds, (followed by a federal court-ordered gag order), for exposing systemic corruption, cronyism driven intelligence manipulation and malfeasance of the type that could have led to the 911 attacks themselves? Remember Mrs Edmunds as giving three and a half hours of testimony to the 911 commission, only have it completely expunged from the 911 commission's transcript? Or a different FBI that secreted the whereabouts of the San Diego FBI "asset" (Abdussattar Shaikh), from the 911 commission that was closely associated with two of the future hijackers, (Nawaf Alhazmi and Khalid Almihdha)? The same FBI that ignored a number of field agents about suspicious Muslim men at flight training schools that were not particularly interested in learning to land or take off in the aircraft? Surely not the FBI who's director, (Robert Mueller), admitted in 2004, 2005 and 2006 that there is "no hard evidence to link the 911 attacks with Osama bin Laden or al Qaeda"?

The NSA gathers raw, (usually electronic), evidence to be assessed by intelligence analysts in formulating the overall threat potential. The organization's review of the pre-911 failures revealed a wide variety of "red flags" that were not acted upon by those organizations charged in doing so, and was particularily damning - yet, interestingly, only as the 911 commissions time was wrapping up, did anyone on the commission think that the NSA records were important. There just wasn't enough time. Imagine that.

And, the NIST investigation? Did I ask you before if you were joking? Let me guess. Because the small number of metallurgists, structural engineers and physicists associated with the NIST study were "government selected", (and carefully vetted as such), and their "explanation" and their conclusions of the building collapses, arrived at through pronounced group-think, were to be taken as the definitive body of facts over, (and opposed to), the hundreds of equally qualified, (or in many cases, with superior experience), architectural engineers, structural engineers and physicists - all of which had the same physical evidence, (physical evidence that was actually subjected to ultra-high temperature analysis)? Now that, my friend is byzantine driven absurdity at its most naked. I tend to value compatible conclusions arrived at by a variety of independent, competent investigators - working independently - independent of group-think or political/institutional agendas.

Hint # 1: ever heard of nano-thermate? It is painted on a surface. It resembles dull paint/primer after application. Upon ignition, it weakens/melts the material to which it is applied, (steel in this case?), depending on it's thickness/concentration. Upon ignition, the material hisses and roars. No explosion is associated with its function. Its shelf life/application life is indefinite.

Hint # 2: ever closely examine photographs of remnants of a bevy of steel columns at ground zero in New York that were once two and three inches in thickness, that were reduced to a paper thin state - even with large, gaping holes?

Hint # 3: no member of the NIST investigation team either tested for or considered myriad, high-speed or slow-speed explosives/accelerant technologies, long-ago developed by the US government and military, or any others.

Hint# 4: arbitrarily plugging new figures into the equation leading to steel losing X amount of its tensile strength in an experiment, critical in explaining the collapse(s), (i.e. fires lasting 50% longer than actually occurred with 70% hotter than actual achieved temperatures due to kerosene fed fires), is not a scientific investigation. It is reaching a preconceived conclusion by hiding the vital figures used to create the results - a fundamental premise that infected the NIST report - in addition to the 911 commissions report from start to finish.

Understanding the manipulation and release of publicly revealed information by even a medium sized, PR conscious company - (much less, a politically driven organization the size of the US government), reveals the heavy hand of institutional perception management. Legitimizing the official by navigating the vast body of evidence through a process of cherry-picking, simply by virtue of its "officialese", is little more than a child's game.

In any meaningful, pragmatic study of human nature, objectivity is more often an intention proudly expressed than an attitude actually achieved, but the intention - conscious, unambiguous, and constantly self-critical - is a necessary precondition to its achievement. Simply stated, any hypothesis, theory or belief can be substantiated and legitimized through a careful selection process by which supporting evidence is displayed - while inconvenient/contradictory evidence is dismissed as irrelevant, hidden or ignored.

"... if you don't see the brush strokes of the big picture - why pretend to analyze it...? ~ author unknown
 
I snipped the prior as most can answer to it in far better detail than I can. I will however comment on what I am familiar with.
And, the NIST investigation? Did I ask you before if you were joking? Let me guess. Because the small number of metallurgists, structural engineers and physicists associated with the NIST study were "government selected", (and carefully vetted as such), and their "explanation" and their conclusions of the building collapses, arrived at through pronounced group-think, were to be taken as the definitive body of facts over, (and opposed to), the hundreds of equally qualified, (or in many cases, with superior experience), architectural engineers, structural engineers and physicists - all of which had the same physical evidence, (physical evidence that was actually subjected to ultra-high temperature analysis)? Now that, my friend is byzantine driven absurdity at its most naked. I tend to value compatible conclusions arrived at by a variety of independent, competent investigators - working independently - independent of group-think or political/institutional agendas.

Referring to the content which is underlined...
NIST was likelly the most comprehensive of the available analysis done concerning the structural performance of the trade center, but there were several others, of which I'm most familiar with Purdue's (Link#2) models. Several other institutions including Purdue ran similar investigations independent of NIST to model what happened. You appear to act as if NIST was the only group to investigate the collapse, and not only that, your insinuation that they are purely government selected, and represent "group think" as a measure of their credibility is nothing short of poisoning the well.

I did not derive my own conclusions from NIST however, I determined that the results were valid because NIST followed many of the same procedures and methodologies I would expect in investigating structural failure and their conclusion fit what was observed.

For the material I bolded
I've yet to see significant opposition from the industries that work with and enforce code regulations in regard to those recommendations which NIST submitted from their investigation; as an industry which works based on cost efficiency and design if the industry felt that NIST's findings were unfounded then the results would have been reflected in the building codes not having such changes applied. Results tend to speak out far louder than games of trying to see who has the most architects and engineers supporting a theory.



Hint # 1: ever heard of nano-thermate? It is painted on a surface. It resembles dull paint/primer after application. Upon ignition, it weakens/melts the material to which it is applied, (steel in this case?), depending on it's thickness/concentration. Upon ignition, the material hisses and roars. No explosion is associated with its function. Its shelf life/application life is indefinite.

(Underlined)
Certainly... however such use for a substance would rely substantially on how much of it is required to cut through a column, let alone a vertical column; something which is one application thermite is not well known for. IIRC its uses fall far short of anything as substantial as cutting the massive columns inside the towers. That said, it's still in the research phase and only uses I've seen proposed for such a substance is welding molecular devices and as heat signature flare decoys.

Bolded
Does that comment mean you dismiss the use of explosives in the trade center? Or does it mean both were used? Or is it just a side order to deflect arguments referring to the lack of explosive remnants and sounds? 911-investigator has talked the entire spectra, from explosives, to thermite, to both... where do you stand?


Hint # 2: ever closely examine photographs of remnants of a bevy of steel columns at ground zero in New York that were once two and three inches in thickness, that were reduced to a paper thin state - even with large, gaping holes?

You mean these? How long are these samples known to have been in the rubble pile before being recovered? Remember thermite melts the steel; I see nothing resembling damage induces by artificial means through the use of incendiary compounds. No slag, for one, and corrosion can easily explain the nature of the samples having been substantially thinned or degraded.

Hint # 3: no member of the NIST investigation team either tested for or considered myriad, high-speed or slow-speed explosives/accelerant technologies, long-ago developed by the US government and military, or any others.
The investigation dealt with the knowns of the events that day. The objective of the investigations was not designed to satisfy conspiracy theorists broadly unsubstantiated claims, it was designed to analyze the effects of the plane impacts and the fires, and to determine what role both played in the onset of structural failure. Thus far, nothing you have offered in your post has done anything to convince me either incendiaries or explosives were responsible, unlike most conspiracy theorists I don't start with the bias that every building is the same, neither do I subsciribe to first time in history contentions, and neither am I biased to take every claim I hear about explosions literally.


Hint# 4: arbitrarily plugging new figures into the equation leading to steel losing X amount of its tensile strength in an experiment, critical in explaining the collapse(s), (i.e. fires lasting 50% longer than actually occurred with 70% hotter than actual achieved temperatures due to kerosene fed fires), is not a scientific investigation. It is reaching a preconceived conclusion by hiding the vital figures used to create the results - a fundamental premise that infected the NIST report - in addition to the 911 commissions report from start to finish.
With this statement I have to wonder if you've read the report at all, or just read something a conspiracy peddling site forked out. I'm inclined to believe the latter, particularly with the bolded & underlined section of your statement. What considerations did you base your apparent conclusions on when you thought up your argument? I'm asking in particular in how you arrived at your conclusion that the fires burned less, and cooler. As for the kerosene comment; blatantly incorrect to say the least. While the fuel indeed contributed to sparking the fire and accelerating its spread throughout the building it burned off relatively quickly, after which the fuel source was the contents of the office space inside the towers, which incidentally burn hotter than the fuel.



In any meaningful, pragmatic study of human nature, objectivity is more often an intention proudly expressed than an attitude actually achieved, but the intention - conscious, unambiguous, and constantly self-critical - is a necessary precondition to its achievement. Simply stated, any hypothesis, theory or belief can be substantiated and legitimized through a careful selection process by which supporting evidence is displayed - while inconvenient/contradictory evidence is dismissed as irrelevant, hidden or ignored.
Unfortunately such professed objectivity is not a trait known to be in the truth movements' methods, which incidentally is the second main reason why I never considered them reliable in identifying any one particular piece of evidence. I particularly did not think highly of the movement when members of it found it necessary to manipulate photographs to support contentions of thermite cuts near the base of the towers (which as it turned out were images of post-cleanup), and molten metal (which incidentally turned out to be work lights used in rescue operations). Certain authorities in professional groups such as AE911 decided it necessary to offer demonstrations using card board boxes, and weak characterizations of the building collapses. These are only a few examples of many where I find the credibility lacking. May I suggest that before you offer any form of advice on proper informative methodology that you first apply it yourself, or ensure that your sources do the same, it was truly a let down when I started researching the very contentions you set forth only to find out that the same group presenting such information practices similar faulty practices.
 
I snipped the prior as most can answer to it in far better detail than I can. I will however comment on what I am familiar with.

Very well done, Grizzly.

Referring to the content which is underlined...
NIST was likelly the most comprehensive of the available analysis done concerning the structural performance of the trade center, but there were several others, of which I'm most familiar with Purdue's (Link#2) models. Several other institutions including Purdue ran similar investigations independent of NIST to model what happened. You appear to act as if NIST was the only group to investigate the collapse, and not only that, your insinuation that they are purely government selected, and represent "group think" as a measure of their credibility is nothing short of poisoning the well.

Regarding the point of other groups analyzing the event: R.Mackey addressed this on several occasions, this one in particular. In short, MIT, Weidlinger Associates, and Exponent Failure Analysis Associates have also done failure analylses.

We must also remember the point I continually beat on around here: The University of Edinburgh and Arup group have also weighed in, not on the modeling as a whole, but on the specific issue of fire resistance, which is one of the central points. While they differ with one of NIST's conclusions - specifically, about the fireproofing - even their disagreement is in line with impact damage and fires leading to collapse. Heck, I think one of those two groups came out and said that the fires would have caused the collapse due to thermal expansion/distortion effects alone, even without the impact damage (if anyone remembers this, feel free to support or rebut that statement; I'm working from memory on that one, so I'm not sure if I have it right).

Anyway, your point about NIST not being the only group to study the collapse is absolutely correct. Individual aspects were studied by several different groups, and overall modeling was done by the groups listed above. And we're just talking about the engineering/structural studies; regarding the criminal investigation, the FBI may not be releasing information (and while that's understandable, it's a pain as far as debunking goes), but it's clear they've also investigated the collapse from their own standpoint.
 
First, I made no such implication that the 911 investigative commission was the only investigation into the 911 attacks. Equating me with, and reducing me to "an ilk: is - well - silly.
That is a lie. The fact that you harp on the 9/11 commission proves it. Add to that the fact that the "Truth Movement" also harps on the same thing make you a part of said "ilk."
Second, you make reference to lies. Interesting. Is it a lie to withhold the truth? To dismiss vital facts, inconsistencies and contradictions in order to create a body of truth? If so, the 911 commission is the unchallenged tour de force -- likely in all of recorded human history.
It is not a lie to withhold the truth. Dishonest, but not a lie. As far as inconsistencies and contradictions are concerned, you only have the ones that have been fabricated by the terrorist apologists of the "Truth Movement." For instance, they harp on the fact that WTC 7 is not in the report, yet cannot come up with a reason that it should be other than "it collapsed." As the purveyors of "da twoof" love to point out, 7 was not hit by a plane, therefore not a part of the attack. So, how is it's collapse within the scope of the report?
Third, the suspects in the failures investigating themselves. Brilliant premise at its foundation. Police investigating the police is always a reliable way to get to the truth, and put all suspicions to rest -- don't you think?
The problem with this is the fact that you, nor the rest of your ilk, cannot come up with one iota of evidence that would make the government a suspect.
Now, the FAA as an investigative body, with itself as a potential target? Are you joking? Really?
Is this the same FAA that the 911 commission harshly criticized for failing in a task that it performs routinely, (timely reporting of and location of errant aircraft)
source?
, and yet praised for doing what had never been done before, (safely emptying the skies of all aircraft after the 911 attacks)? The same FAA that had a shift supervisor at the center of operations when the 911 attacks were in progress, that later intentionally destroyed a tape recording made by six air traffic controllers in order to document the facts of that critical morning - and scattered the remains of the tape recording in various, on-site trash cans? The same FAA that didn't mention this fact in their "investigation"? Of course, we can all be rest assured that no other inconvenient details were omitted, right?
You do realize that those tapes were in violation of union rules? Do you also know that the same controllers were available for interviews by authorities? So your contention that this is a major issue is false.
The FBI investigation? Is this the same FBI, or a different one, that fired Sibel Edmunds, (followed by a federal court-ordered gag order)
that somehow has not prevented her from talking about it
, for exposing systemic corruption, cronyism driven intelligence manipulation and malfeasance of the type that could have led to the 911 attacks themselves?
Of course you ignore the fact that she was basically ordered to slow down her translation for budget reasons.
Remember Mrs Edmunds as giving three and a half hours of testimony to the 911 commission, only have it completely expunged from the 911 commission's transcript?
Of course, you and your ilk cannot come up with what was said in her testimony that was significant and therefore needed to be included in the report.
Or a different FBI that secreted the whereabouts of the San Diego FBI "asset" (Abdussattar Shaikh), from the 911 commission that was closely associated with two of the future hijackers, (Nawaf Alhazmi and Khalid Almihdha)?
Yeah, exposing an asset that can be used in the future is always the best policy.
The same FBI that ignored a number of field agents about suspicious Muslim men at flight training schools that were not particularly interested in learning to land or take off in the aircraft?
Since that number was one and they did arrest and try him, you're just parroting another lie.
Surely not the FBI who's director, (Robert Mueller), admitted in 2004, 2005 and 2006 that there is "no hard evidence to link the 911 attacks with Osama bin Laden or al Qaeda"?
Actually, the claim was just OBL and if there was a conspiracy that the FBI was involved in, it would be safe to say that no such claim would have ever been made. Yet you and your ilk use it as "proof."
The NSA gathers raw, (usually electronic), evidence to be assessed by intelligence analysts in formulating the overall threat potential. The organization's review of the pre-911 failures revealed a wide variety of "red flags" that were not acted upon by those organizations charged in doing so, and was particularily damning - yet, interestingly, only as the 911 commissions time was wrapping up, did anyone on the commission think that the NSA records were important. There just wasn't enough time. Imagine that.
Amazing, if they had taken the time, you and your ilk would have stated that they took too long or just ignored it like everything else in the report.
And, the NIST investigation? Did I ask you before if you were joking? Let me guess. Because the small number of metallurgists, structural engineers and physicists associated with the NIST study were "government selected", (and carefully vetted as such), and their "explanation" and their conclusions of the building collapses, arrived at through pronounced group-think, were to be taken as the definitive body of facts over, (and opposed to), the hundreds of equally qualified, (or in many cases, with superior experience), architectural engineers, structural engineers and physicists - all of which had the same physical evidence, (physical evidence that was actually subjected to ultra-high temperature analysis)? Now that, my friend is byzantine driven absurdity at its most naked. I tend to value compatible conclusions arrived at by a variety of independent, competent investigators - working independently - independent of group-think or political/institutional agendas.
Wow, a horrendous amount of stupid in one paragraph. What you and your ilk completely ignore is the fact that the hundreds of equally qualified engineers, architects and scientist that have taken a detailed look at the full body of evidence have come up with the same conclusions as NIST. Some disagree with some of the details, but not the final conclusion. If your talking about AE911 and its <30 qualified people, they have done nothing to perform anything close to an objective analysis of the evidence.
Simply stated, any hypothesis, theory or belief can be substantiated and legitimized through a careful selection process by which supporting evidence is displayed - while inconvenient/contradictory evidence is dismissed as irrelevant, hidden or ignored.
This describes 100% of all theories put forth by the "Truth Movement."
"... if you don't see the brush strokes of the big picture - why pretend to analyze it...? ~ author unknown
Why are you pretending to analyze it?
 
Did anyone honestly think those towers were going to collapse that day? Up until the moment the first one did?

If 9/11 had never happened and someone told you flying a fully laden jet into it would make it collapse like a house of cards, would you have believed them?

Isn't it the truth of the matter, that the only reason you are unable to accept they were brought down deliberately, is because you cannot imagine, or do not want to imagine, the deviousness that may be involved, and hence, isn't this an argument from incredulity?
 
Did anyone honestly think those towers were going to collapse that day? Up until the moment the first one did?

If 9/11 had never happened and someone told you flying a fully laden jet into it would make it collapse like a house of cards, would you have believed them?

Isn't it the truth of the matter, that the only reason you are unable to accept they were brought down deliberately, is because you cannot imagine, or do not want to imagine, the deviousness that may be involved, and hence, isn't this an argument from incredulity?

Yes, some people honestly thought they could collapse.

Yes, I would believe that would be possible. Then again, I'm not qualified to be listened to on the matter...but I'm a firm believe that most anything is possible.

It's not about accepting any theory that would show they were brought down deliberately...it's the fact that no evidence exists that sways that direction.
 
Did anyone honestly think those towers were going to collapse that day? Up until the moment the first one did?

If 9/11 had never happened and someone told you flying a fully laden jet into it would make it collapse like a house of cards, would you have believed them?

Isn't it the truth of the matter, that the only reason you are unable to accept they were brought down deliberately, is because you cannot imagine, or do not want to imagine, the deviousness that may be involved, and hence, isn't this an argument from incredulity?

First of all, yes, it was predicted that they would collapse before it happened. And if 9/11 never happened, it still would be perfectly believable to me that a large plane filled with fuel crashing into a skyscraper at full speed could make it collapse.

The reason I don't accept that they were brought down deliberately is because they weren't. NIST's explanation makes perfect sense. They even have video evidence proving their theory of how the collapses initiated. I would wager you don't even know what the initiation mechanism is according to NIST. Also, alternative explanations are impossible. If there were explosives, there would have been extremely loud bangs go off before the collapses started. These bangs would have recorded by every video camera trained on the towers and heard by millions of people in person. This didn't happen. I was there. I didn't hear anything. If you want to argue thermite, mini-nukes, or giant lasers from outer space, you are crazy.

So, unless somebody wants to come up with an explanation that is physically possible, matches the evidence, and can contradict NIST's explanation for collapse initiation, I will continue to believe that the towers came down because of impact damage and fire and that anybody that says otherwise is a complete idiot. This is not an argument from incredulity, it is called being logical and examining the evidence. Not that I expect you to know what this means.
 
Did anyone honestly think those towers were going to collapse that day? Up until the moment the first one did?

If 9/11 had never happened and someone told you flying a fully laden jet into it would make it collapse like a house of cards, would you have believed them?

Isn't it the truth of the matter, that the only reason you are unable to accept they were brought down deliberately, is because you cannot imagine, or do not want to imagine, the deviousness that may be involved, and hence, isn't this an argument from incredulity?

I did not think about it much until 9/11 truth made up lies and false information.

If I had thought about collapse, I would not be able to make a valid conclusion before collapse (thank goodness firemen take command and clear people out due the fact building fail in fire!!!! THEY ARE HEROES CAUSE THEY PREPARE FOR THE WORSE!!!), I did not know the planes were speeding and had 66,000 pounds of fuel on board. If I had known that day the design parameters Robertson had planned on were an low fuel 180 mph 707, and the speed of 11 and 175 at 490 to 590 mph, then I would have known the impacts on 9/11 were 7 to 11 times greater than the DESIGN IMPACT of a low fuel 707 at 180 mph.

We have to take a look at impacts of 7 to 11 times greater than the design could take. That is significant. When we learn the fire systems and fireproofing were destroyed and damaged; now we have steel unprotected that can fail quickly.

The 66,000 pounds of fuel is the heat equal of 315 TONS of TNT that set fires on multiple floors never seen before in high rise building.

Impacts, the biggest impacts of aircraft ever, 1300 and 2093 pounds of TNT impacts of Kinetic energy. Physics needed?

After understanding the design, the impacts, and the fires I would be surprised if the tower did not collapse. Thank goodness the firemen know buildings fail in fire and helped people escape.

After we study the design, impacts, and fires; the gravity collapse seen on 9/11 is reality. 9/11 truth idea are not supported with evidence; just hearsay, and fantasy.

I disagree for reasons based in physics, math, science, and structures, plus more.
 
Did anyone honestly think those towers were going to collapse that day? Up until the moment the first one did?

If 9/11 had never happened and someone told you flying a fully laden jet into it would make it collapse like a house of cards, would you have believed them?

Isn't it the truth of the matter, that the only reason you are unable to accept they were brought down deliberately, is because you cannot imagine, or do not want to imagine, the deviousness that may be involved, and hence, isn't this an argument from incredulity?

Did you just admit your argueing from incredulity and want to use it as a valid argument?
 

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