The PG Film - Bob Heironimus and Patty

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makaya325 said:
I think its reasonable that, since patterson made a documentary for tracks he found, he also photographed the real thing
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You must have an extremely low standard of what constitutes reason.

You have an animal that has zero evidence supporting it does or ever has existed.

You have an animal that ( if its numerous CONFLICTING descriptions of physical and behaviorial characteristics are to be believed) has the mixture of different species that theoretically shouldnt be together any more than the duck billed two headed ungulate landshark.

You have an animal thats so rare- its "nowhere" but sighted "everywhere" and leaves no evidence of its existence.

Then out of all that improbability and all the other people known to be in and around the target area prior and post to the "sighting" and never saw a thing

2 guys who just happened to be looking for it with a rented camera for that purpose just "happened" upon it ( and mind you, NEVER mounted a subsequent series of hunts for it) but headed straight for a lawyer to start SELLING it

Yeah, thats reasonable alright
 
SweatyYeti said:
Cavemonster wrote:



I'm sure that's true. I'm using foam padding.

The best way to determine if the combination of 'size, bulk and movement' that we see with Patty could possibly be a padded suit, is to try replicating it with a padded suit. If there are a few different materials which could have been used....then it's simply a matter of making multiple versions of suits, and seeing if any of them very closely replicate Patty.
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No, it isn't about using the right material, but about using the right materials organized the right way. Leaving unnoticable gaps in your padding of the right width in the right places to allow movement. Lining some areas with smooth fabric to promote sliding and others with purposefully rough surfaces to let one piece pull another a bit.

Then, the skin you put on top will change the entire picture.
By building any number of suits, you can only provide evidence in the positive. It would be like building something that looks like the outside of a car to prove that a Ferrari can't go 200mph. The engine of a car isn't just a space filled with metal, and a good costume that moves well and hides the performer isn't just space filled with padding.
 
LONGTABBER PE said:
You must have an extremely low standard of what constitutes reason.

You have an animal that has zero evidence supporting it does or ever has existed.

You have an animal that ( if its numerous CONFLICTING descriptions of physical and behaviorial characteristics are to be believed) has the mixture of different species that theoretically shouldnt be together any more than the duck billed two headed ungulate landshark.

You have an animal thats so rare- its "nowhere" but sighted "everywhere" and leaves no evidence of its existence.

Then out of all that improbability and all the other people known to be in and around the target area prior and post to the "sighting" and never saw a thing

2 guys who just happened to be looking for it with a rented camera for that purpose just "happened" upon it ( and mind you, NEVER mounted a subsequent series of hunts for it) but headed straight for a lawyer to start SELLING it

Yeah, thats reasonable alright
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I rented a car to drive 600 miles to a place I'd never been before. Didn't affect the reality of the place I arrived at. However rental camera and astounding luck. Red flag? No deep pink though. Heading straight to a lawyer? Excellent idea, one of the few things they got right. Never searched again? What for? Patterson (if its real) delivered the goods. Would I have gone back out after nailing the proof on film? Hell no I'm going to get the attention of the world on this thing and let science capture it. I'm done with the woods.

Thing is Patterson really expected the scientific community to jump on it. The scientific community didn't jump on it and he was soon to relapse and die in a couple of years.
 
makaya325 said:
Long, you dont sound like you think it exists. What evidence do you find the best?
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I told you before, I'm a BF PROponent ( in other words, I believe it probably does)

Its the PGF thats 100% hoax which has nothing to do with the possibility of BF existing, one way or the other

>>>What evidence do you find the best

My own 2 not sure encounters- otherwise, absolutely nothing. There is no "best evidence" showing BF exists. There is no evidence at all but anecdotal witness accounts and holes in the ground resembling a foot.
 
Crowlogic said:
I rented a car to drive 600 miles to a place I'd never been before. Didn't affect the reality of the place I arrived at. However rental camera and astounding luck. Red flag? No deep pink though. Heading straight to a lawyer? Excellent idea, one of the few things they got right. Never searched again? What for? Patterson (if its real) delivered the goods. Would I have gone back out after nailing the proof on film? Hell no I'm going to get the attention of the world on this thing and let science capture it. I'm done with the woods.

Thing is Patterson really expected the scientific community to jump on it. The scientific community didn't jump on it and he was soon to relapse and die in a couple of years.
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Come on crow, put it in context

>>>I rented a car to drive 600 miles to a place I'd never been before. Didn't affect the reality of the place I arrived at.

Of course not

>>>However rental camera and astounding luck. Red flag? No deep pink though.

OK, deep deep pink

>>>Heading straight to a lawyer? Excellent idea, one of the few things they got right.

In principle ( as being self employed) I agree ( to do anything, he needed a business plan, legal advice and agreements etc) I did the exact same thing some 30 odd years ago but from that point forward, I pursued Engineering- I didnt stop with our first project.

>>>Never searched again? What for?

Bigfoot- you know the thing he wrote a book about and focused on for about 10 years? Hard to imagine a man with all that interest and effort dedicated stopping after filming "the big one"

>>>Patterson (if its real) delivered the goods. Would I have gone back out after nailing the proof on film? Hell no I'm going to get the attention of the world on this thing and let science capture it. I'm done with the woods.

I might could accept that IF "the scientific community" rolled out the red carpet for him and made him the "go to" guy for all things BF. That didnt quite happen.

>>>Thing is Patterson really expected the scientific community to jump on it. The scientific community didn't jump on it and he was soon to relapse and die in a couple of years

A lot of con men really believe they can "fool" science and "the establishment"- the majority of them fail. ( fooling individuals is much easier)

Thats why Carlton Sheets doesnt advertise his course in Real Estate publications.

As far as him relapsing and dying- he didnt do that immediately and was "allegedly" planning to go to BFH to find a "yeti"- why not go where he KNEW they were since that would be cheaper and easier in every logistic and financial sense?
 
A question:

Who exactly would be Paterson`s and Gimlim`s "target public"?

The whole scientific community (biologists, anthropologists, etc.) or a few individuals (some of whom happened to be within the scientific community) more prone to fall in their scam due to their bigfoot belief?

I believe the second option would be more likely, but what are your thoughts on this issue?
 
Correa Neto said:
A question:

Who exactly would be Paterson`s and Gimlim`s "target public"?

The whole scientific community (biologists, anthropologists, etc.) or a few individuals (some of whom happened to be within the scientific community) more prone to fall in their scam due to their bigfoot belief?

I believe the second option would be more likely, but what are your thoughts on this issue?
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The curious and not particularly informed masses who they could sell many thousands of movie tickets to. I think they only wanted enough scientific scrutiny to get them a few ambiguous promotional blurbs that would sound good on a movie flyer.
 
Cavemonster wrote:
a good costume that moves well and hides the performer isn't just space filled with padding.
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A padded costume isn't a high-tech device, Cavemonster.....in the case of the PG Film, it would be (if it is actually a suit) a hairy suit filled with a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT of padding.


Again, it's simply a matter of putting together a few different types of padded suits, to see how the arm movement, and body proportions look, in comparison to Patty.

IF the arm movement can't very closely replicate Patty's arm movement, then it's very unlikely (a low probability) that Patty is a man-in-a-suit.
And, the more attempts to reproduce Patty there are that fail....then the lower the probability becomes that she is, in fact, a suit.

So, contrary to what you said...

By building any number of suits, you can only provide evidence in the positive.
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....the inability to replicate Patty can effectively prove...beyond a reasonable doubt, a negative...that she isn't a man-in-a-suit.
 
Correa Neto said:
A question:

Who exactly would be Paterson`s and Gimlim`s "target public"?

The whole scientific community (biologists, anthropologists, etc.) or a few individuals (some of whom happened to be within the scientific community) more prone to fall in their scam due to their bigfoot belief?

I believe the second option would be more likely, but what are your thoughts on this issue?
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My opinion is somewhat predicated on what I'm finding out but here goes.

The question that would determine it for me has never been answered.

DID RP actually believe such creatures existed or did he start out with a hoax in mind? ( we will never know the answer to that but considering the 10 odd years he spent involved with the subject before the PGF- I think it reasonable to accept he "probably" did "believe" at one point and maybe did thru the whole thing)

I would think he would have to know that IF he was lucky to get some initial buy in- the "scientific method" would eventually come into play and there would have to be hard data. That said, I think he thought he could get enough buy in to sell his product. ( a BF film/books whatever)

I believe his target audience was the general public ( and their money) as he stated he was going to make a million dollars.

Remember the mindset of the day- it was 1967 with no internet and a lot of modern technology didnt exist then. Having a "mystery" meant more then and was more alluring ( and easier to keep going)

His "whole" actions ( from the known start of his interest until his death with the PGF at about the 2/3 mark) viewed as a total body lead me to believe his target was always "John Q" and his wallet.

I do tend to believe also that he may have had a legitimate belief in BF but realized that without finding a real one- he had to make one. ( which might explain why he made it similar to some of the reports he got- he wanted his suit to somewhat resemble "the real thing")

He wouldnt be the first person to get frustrated in a quest and go to the "dark side" and make up his data for money or fame.
 
LT, I tend to agree. Patterson believing in bigfoot (at least for some time) and at a certain point deciding to get some money out of it with a scam makes more sense. It's nothing but sheer speculation, but the "belief" item it may also help to explain Gimlim`s behavior - maybe he never actually believed in bigfeet and/or saw little profit (monetary or individual promotion) on the scam back then.

It also makes more sense to target the general uninformed audience. However, having a couple of naïve enthusiasts by your side can be helpfull. BTW, I also doubt that he ever thought things would go the way they went, with the appearance of a loyal group of sudits...

OT stuff- Keep it up, man! One may believe in bigfoot -or assign a high probability to their existence- without actually buying the whole package of pseudoscience and nonsense which composes bigfootery's core.
 
Correa Neto said:
LT, I tend to agree. Patterson believing in bigfoot (at least for some time) and at a certain point deciding to get some money out of it with a scam makes more sense. It's nothing but sheer speculation, but the "belief" item it may also help to explain Gimlim`s behavior - maybe he never actually believed in bigfeet and/or saw little profit (monetary or individual promotion) on the scam back then.

It also makes more sense to target the general uninformed audience. However, having a couple of naïve enthusiasts by your side can be helpfull. BTW, I also doubt that he ever thought things would go the way they went, with the appearance of a loyal group of sudits...

OT stuff- Keep it up, man! One may believe in bigfoot -or assign a high probability to their existence- without actually buying the whole package of pseudoscience and nonsense which composes bigfootery's core.
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>>>It also makes more sense to target the general uninformed audience.

I have always believed like TL Jones said in MIB- "a person is smart- people are stupid"

>>>However, having a couple of naïve enthusiasts by your side can be helpfull. BTW, I also doubt that he ever thought things would go the way they went, with the appearance of a loyal group of sudits...


I have dealt with a few cons in my career ( such things were common on military installations in my day) and almost without exception the cons always had a few "seeders' who they "let" win to give the con some validity.

I have often believed that RP had no idea his lone film would evolve as it did. ( I think that if he even had the notion, he wouldnt have stopped and maybe he would have started the first BF "organization" and if the modern BFRO is an example- he probably could have made some serious money back then)

I believe possibly if he and DeAtely had the forethought to hire a real marketing director- it might be as huge as UFO's today.

>>>One may believe in bigfoot -or assign a high probability to their existence- without actually buying the whole package of pseudoscience and nonsense which composes bigfootery's core

If if were not for 2 chance "events" ( which I know I cant mind meld and let people experience what I did) I wouldnt give this subject a first glance because theres really nothing there.
 
Maybe.
However, debating claims like this is the very goal of these forum, can be fun and there's always something one can learn. And since IMHO the bogusicity factor - just made up that one- is not as big as those from other claims (universal flood, chupacabras, UFOs, etc.)...

At last but not least, who knows? Maybe I'm wrong and they are actually out there. Slim chances, I think.
 
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SweatyYeti said:
Cavemonster wrote:
A padded costume isn't a high-tech device, Cavemonster.....in the case of the PG Film, it would be (if it is actually a suit) a hairy suit filled with a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT of padding.
/QUOTE]

As someone who makes padded costumes, I'm telling you you're wrong.
In the case of the PG suit, some of the suspects for building the suit (who may or may not have been discredited) were Hollywood special effects artists.

The point being, whether or not those particular people were involved, that at that point in time, there were many people who put a good deal of engineering into making costumes move just right.

Just because it's a subject you're ignorant of, doesn't mean there isn't a lot of work and knowledge involved. Your claim has all the validity of "If I can't hit the bullseye of this dartboard, nobody has ever done it"
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Correa, yes it is fun. So far, the topics discussed here are basically mowed down by critical thinking and debunking, which is good. I feel sasquatch has withstood all of the attacks by both sides.
 
Not sure why but I keep envisioning Sweaty and his costume as the bigfoot world's version of our Crazy Chainsaw.

Sweaty, please don't blow up anything, including yourself!
 
Makaya-
I don't know your BFF Identity, but I would recommend you take a week and read the 4-1-1 PGF thread. You won't believe the detail to which these freaks here at JREF have studied this film.
 
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