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Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

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Tranewreck and GreNME, while your discussion is very interesting, would you mind if this was spun off into its own thread so that others who are ignoring this long meandering thread by DOC could also take notice and be able to read this discussion?
 
I wouldn't object, as long as enough posts to provide context are involved.
 
I wouldn't object, as long as enough posts to provide context are involved.


I would love it. Quick question for when you start.........how well documented are early references to Horus? I thought I had read somewheres about that there was evidence of a local Horus associated with the sun in one of the upper Egyptian (I think it was upper Egyptian) nomes dated before unification but I could be very wrong.
 
Plus, the Bible says thousands of people saw Jesus resurrected. How could thousands of people be wrong?

Actually in addition to the apostles (11 of whom died as martyrs if we are to believe Wiki). St. Paul said there were 500 people who witnessed the resurrected Jesus and over half of them were still alive at the time he wrote his letter. So Paul was putting his whole ministry and life's work on the line by saying over 250 people were "still alive" who were witnesses. Any skeptics at the time should have been able to prove Paul's claim false. Yet, I know of no writings of skeptics or anyone else that claim they were unable to find any of the over 250 witnesses Paul was talking about.

Over 500 people witnessing a resurrected Christ could explain the speedy growth of Christianity in the repressive Roman empire in spite of no decent transportation or communication.
 
Actually in addition to the apostles (11 of whom died as martyrs if we are to believe Wiki). St. Paul said there were 500 people who witnessed the resurrected Jesus and over half of them were still alive at the time he wrote his letter. So Paul was putting his whole ministry and life's work on the line by saying over 250 people were "still alive" who were witnesses. Any skeptics at the time should have been able to prove Paul's claim false. Yet, I know of no writings of skeptics or anyone else that claim they were unable to find any of the over 250 witnesses Paul was talking about.

Over 500 people witnessing a resurrected Christ could explain the speedy growth of Christianity in the repressive Roman empire in spite of no decent transportation or communication.

Er, who were the 250 witnesses? Four or five names will be plenty to convince me they were real. It's quite safe to claim unnamed witnesses. Skeptics were awfully rare back then, it's taken a very long time for the idea that one should expect some hard evidence before believing in something hard to believe in to fully develop.

I've heard there are thousands of witnesses to Kim Sung Il being carried off to a sacred mountain by cranes when he died. Millions believe it. Eyewitness testimony is the next worse type of evidence next to hearsay. What you've got is hearsay of eyewitness testimony, assuming the documents haven't been tampered with or been mistranslated badly enough to change the gist of the accounts.

BTW, there is a simple explanation for all of this that allows the NT to be pretty much a factual account: Jesus may not have been dead. He was taken off the cross early because he appeared to be dead, that may have been a mistake. It used to be fairly common to mistake someone deeply unconscious as being dead. So he wakes up in his tomb, still wounded, but alive, and escapes. The rock may not have been there in the first place, but if there really was an earthquake at the crucifixion, aftershocks could have moved any size rock. Jesus himself would have had no reason to believe he hadn't really died.

I'm just spitballing here, and leaving out the possibility many Muslims believe, that the whole thing was planned out in advance with a drug to make Jesus seem dead, followed by a rescue (probably bribing the Roman guards). Remember the authorities at the time feared his followers would steal the body of Jesus (to claim resurrection?), which is why they went to so much trouble to seal up the tomb in the first place.

Remember, in the biblical accounts there were no eyewitnesses to the resurrection. People saw him die, and later saw him alive. No one actually saw him rise from the dead.

So, nothing made up from whole cloth, everybody being honest (barring the Muslim version), and still there's a perfectly reasonable explanation for hundreds of people mistakenly thinking Jesus was resurrected.

This is not to put down other objections to the story, but effectively it doesn't prove a resurrection even if it's 'true'.
 
Actually in addition to the apostles (11 of whom died as martyrs if we are to believe Wiki). St. Paul said there were 500 people who witnessed the resurrected Jesus and over half of them were still alive at the time he wrote his letter. So Paul was putting his whole ministry and life's work on the line by saying over 250 people were "still alive" who were witnesses. Any skeptics at the time should have been able to prove Paul's claim false. Yet, I know of no writings of skeptics or anyone else that claim they were unable to find any of the over 250 witnesses Paul was talking about.
Over 500 people witnessing a resurrected Christ could explain the speedy growth of Christianity in the repressive Roman empire in spite of no decent transportation or communication.



Actually you are entirely uninformed by this. I suggest you read Elaine Pagels The Gnostic Gospels.



Here's a little snippet.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/story/pagels.html

The issue regarding who witnessed Christ is a HUGE issue in the world of Christian authority.
 
Actually you are entirely uninformed by this. I suggest you read Elaine Pagels The Gnostic Gospels.



Here's a little snippet.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/story/pagels.html

The issue regarding who witnessed Christ is a HUGE issue in the world of Christian authority.


I am currently reading Pagels' book on the Gospel of Judas, and as an aside, she clearly demonstrates how the author of Matthew made stuff up regarding Jesus and his life. Of the gospels, Matthew was most concerned with evidence that Jesus was the one prophesied in the Old Testament. As such, he went to the most effort to tie various aspects of Jesus' life in with OT prophets and in at least one case, made the kind of copy/paste reading comprehension error that can be easily seen.

When describing Jesus' entry into Jerusalem, Mark, Luke, and John have him riding on a young, male donkey, a "colt" in most translations. This matches the prophecy found in Zechariah.

Zec 9:9 - KJV said:
Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he [is] just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt, the foal of an ass.


Note the conformance to poetic tradition where they repeat the description of the donkey at the end of the phrase, "an ass, and upon a colt, the foal of an ass".

Matthew apparently reads this literally (unlike the others) and invents Rodeo Jesus where he is riding both animals (although to be fair, probably not both at once).

Matthew 21:7 - KJV said:
And brought the ass, and the colt, and put on them their clothes, and they set [him] thereon.


You would think that if Matthew were an eyewitness and not simply trying to make history match prophecy (rather than the other way around), he would have indicated that the apostles only brought one beast, as the other gospels describe. It would not surprise me in the least if the gospel writers twisted the truth to match their message in many other ways as well.
 
Additionally (that was interesting to read!) but more importantly actually WITNESSING Jesus gives one a measure of authority according to the church. This is why its an issue because Mary Magdelene's gospel would then have a valid claim to be included in the bible. But it is not. Those 250 people who supposedly saw a ressurected Jesus would be considered a Christian authority.

Not to mention a simple point of how do we know THEY say they saw him if they don't tell us?

That's like me saying I saw a space ship floating above my street last night. The whole block saw it! Wouldn't you need to verify with the whole block before accepting that statement.
 
I hereby claim that 1million unnamed Jews saw Jesus' body burnt after he was crucified.
 
Actually you are entirely uninformed by this. I suggest you read Elaine Pagels The Gnostic Gospels.



Here's a little snippet.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/story/pagels.html

The issue regarding who witnessed Christ is a HUGE issue in the world of Christian authority.

Your statement is correct, but I certainly would hesitate to recommend the book. Pagels is readable enough, but as was pointed out early in the reception of the book she conflates at least one quote from the church fathers, linking together two passages from entirely different books of Irenaeus as i recall, and scholarly reception has not been particularly kind. Shame because she is a good author and academic.

cj x
 
She was pretty young when she started writing so I cut her a bit of slack on that. But overall, the book touches on the controversy which was my point.
 
What about all the kids who see Santa? But, to quote Kinky Friedman, "We believe it was Santa who killed Jesus Christ."
 
I am currently reading Pagels' book on the Gospel of Judas, and as an aside, she clearly demonstrates how the author of Matthew made stuff up regarding Jesus and his life.

Other than your confusing donkey story below list all the stuff Matthew made up, and evidence for it.

And just because two eyewitnesses have two different accounts of an event that doesn't mean they made it up. It happens all the time. In fact judges sometimes get suspicious when two stories (from witnesses) have the exact same minor details.
 
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Other than your confusing donkey story below list all the stuff Matthew made up, and evidence for it.
Whooooosh again. Are you doing it on purpose?
No. The donkey story isn't about how disimilar the Matthew is with the other various accounts are but how magically similar it is with accounts in Zechariah. It is very suspicious on how the exact wording is used, so much so that one has to wonder if it was copied directly.
And just because two eyewitnesses have two different accounts of an event that doesn't mean they made it up. It happens all the time.
Yes indeed, It does show how eyewitness accounts are essentially unrealiable and prone to error. So why should we take the second hand accounts from the Bible as "gospel"?
In fact judges sometimes get suspicious when two stories (from witnesses) have the exact same minor details.
What complete and utter nonsense. Are you pulling that "fact" out from your rear or did you read it in some poor apolegetics site?
 
Other than your confusing donkey story below list all the stuff Matthew made up, and evidence for it.

And just because two eyewitnesses have two different accounts of an event that doesn't mean they made it up. It happens all the time. In fact judges sometimes get suspicious when two stories (from witnesses) have the exact same minor details.


Are you suggesting that the author of Matthew was an eye-witness? Why did he copy Mark's work, then? Was he an eye-witness who was lazy or an eye-witness who just liked to cheat or what?

You're right that judges get suspicious when two stories from witnesses have the same details. Teachers get very suspicious when two works use the same words in the same order. Generally they call it plagarism, and it is clear evidence that one person copied from another.

Do eye-witnesses copy from one another generally?

ETA:

If you want a full list of topics cribbed from the prophets/psalms/exodus and incoporated almost wholesale into the gospels, that would take a while to corral.

For Matthew making stuff up -- try the birth narrative that is based on Moses' birth story and traditions about Moses birth story from later Midrash. We can move on from there.
 
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Are you suggesting that the author of Matthew was an eye-witness? Why did he copy Mark's work, then?

Skeptics complain when gospel accounts are similar and then they complain the gospels accounts are different? They want it both ways -- which is it are the gospels too similar or are they too different. Skeptics should make up their minds once and for all.
 
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