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Can atheists be rational? (not a parody thread)

cj.23

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OK, this is not a parody thread. Of course I believe atheists can be rational (I just took the title from the other thread) but what I want to see is a rational argument for atheism. I have always assumed such exist, and that atheism can be entirely rational, but following recent reading of Hume and various other writers I have come to seriously doubt if a rational argument outside of a cost/benefit analysis can be constructed for atheism. Yet I remain convinced there must be some - so go on atheists, if you feel like demonstrating the rationality of the atheistic hypothesis, go for it! :)

cj x
 
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The astronomer Pierre Laplace was explaining his theory of the universe to the Emperor Napoleon. Napoleon asked where God fit into Laplace's scheme, and Laplace answered, "Highness, I have no need of this hypothesis."

I may have got the details wrong, but the quote has always sufficed for me. It's not that I need to invalidate God, I just see him as extraneous.
 
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The astronomer Pierre Laplace was explaining his theory of the universe to the Emperor Napoleon. Napoleon asked where God fit into Laplace's scheme, and Laplace answered, "Highness, I have no need of this hypothesis."

I may have got the details wrong, but the quote has always sufficed for me. It's not that I need to invalidate God, I just see him as extraneous.

No that's complete right. Laplace argued from a extreme form of deterministic ultra-materialism which we know believe to be false: 20th century physics has so far been a strong reaction to the "billard ball hypothesis". I am very sympathetic to your position though Beady - God as extraneous that is. Still, it does not follow logically that God does not exist, and there are many who would argue God is far from extraneous. ;)

cj x
 
OK, this is not a parody thread. Of course I believe atheists can be rational (I just took the title from the other thread) but what I want to see is a rational argument for atheism. I have always assumed such exist, and that atheism can be entirely rational, but following recent reading of Hume and various other writers I have come to seriously doubt if a rational argument outside of a cost/benefit analysis can be constructed for atheism. Yet I remain convinced there must be some - so go on atheists, if you feel like demonstrating the rationality of the atheistic hypothesis, go for it! :)

cj x

So you don't consider your atheism rational?
 
OK, this is not a parody thread. Of course I believe atheists can be rational (I just took the title from the other thread) but what I want to see is a rational argument for atheism. I have always assumed such exist, and that atheism can be entirely rational, but following recent reading of Hume and various other writers I have come to seriously doubt if a rational argument outside of a cost/benefit analysis can be constructed for atheism. Yet I remain convinced there must be some - so go on atheists, if you feel like demonstrating the rationality of the atheistic hypothesis, go for it!


First, you need to define "atheist".
 
No that's complete right. Laplace argued from a extreme form of deterministic ultra-materialism which we know believe to be false: 20th century physics has so far been a strong reaction to the "billard ball hypothesis". I am very sympathetic to your position though Beady - God as extraneous that is. Still, it does not follow logically that God does not exist, and there are many who would argue God is far from extraneous. ;)

cj x

From the debates I've read, definitions of God start at incoherent, then gradually get whittled down to extraneous.
 
I'm not an atheist, but here's a truncated version with slight modifications from the Spinozan original. The upshot being that dualism is bunk and monism rules. This leaves us with a situation -- there is an originary substance, but we cannot know that substance in itself. We can view that substance as divine (as Spinoza chose to do) or we can view it as profane. We are left with a choice, really, with no means to decide.

Take the red pill or the blue pill. It is your choice. It is just as rational to choose one or the other.

It is not rational to limit your choice to particular attributes once the choice is made -- in other words, making God in your own image is not rational. Any anthropomorphization that fixes God into some type, be it "the designer" or "the Christian God" is a limitation on God's attributes.


Prop. I. Substance is by Nature prior to its modifications.

Premise 1. Substance exists and cannot be dependent on anything
else for its existence.

Prop. II.
Two substances, whose attributes are different, have
nothing in common.

Premise 2. No two substances can share an attribute.
Proof: If they share an attribute, they would be identical. Therefore
they can only be individuated by their modes. But then they would
depend on their modes for their identity. This would have the sub-
stance being dependent on its mode, in violation of premise 1.
Therefore, two substances cannot share the same attribute.

Prop. III. Things which have nothing in common cannot be one
the cause of the other.

Premise 3. A substance can only be caused by something similar
to itself (something that shares its attribute).

Prop. IV. Two or more distinct things are distinguished one from
the other, either by the difference of the attributes of
the substances, or by the difference of their modifica-
tions.
Implied is Premise 4. Substance cannot be caused.

Proof: Something can only be caused by something which
is similar to itself, in other words something that shares its
attribute. But according to premise 2, no two substances can
share an attribute. Therefore substance cannot be caused.

Prop. V. There cannot exist in the universe two or more
substances having the same nature or attribute.

Implied is Premise 5. Substance is infinite.
Proof: If substance were not infinite, it would be finite and
limited by something. But to be limited by something is to be
dependent on it. However, substance cannot be dependent
on anything else (premise 1), therefore substance is infinite.

Prop. VI. One substance cannot be produced by another
substance.

IImplied is the Conclusion: There can only be one substance.

Proof: If there were two infinite substances, they would limit
each other. But this would act as a restraint, and they would
be dependent on each other. But they cannot be dependent
on each other (premise 1), therefore there cannot be two
substances.

Prop. VII.
Existence belongs to the Nature of substance.

Prop. VIII
Every substance is necessarily infinite.

Prop. IX. The more reality or being a thing has the greater the
number of its attributes.

Prop. X. Each particular attribute of the one substance must
be conceived through itself.

Prop. XI. Substance, consisting of infinite attributes, of
which each expresses eternal and infinite essentiality,
necessarily exists.

Prop. XII.
No attribute of substance can be conceived from which
it would follow that substance can be divided.

Prop. XIII. Substance absolutely infinite is indivisible.
 
Atheism isn't a choice or decision. Rejecting a previously held belief might involve choice or a positive decision, but atheism is just the state in which a person remains until presented with compelling reasons to believe in one or more gods.

I'm an atheist because no one has presented a rational argument for non-atheism.
 
Which Gods/Goddeses do I disbelieve in?

cj x

Horus. Zeus. Or to take more recent example Shiva. brahama. etc...

To answer your original question, it you define Atheism as the disbelief of an existence of a God DUE to lack of evidence, congruent to the disbelief of existence of pink flying unicorn, then it can certainly be seen as rational. The same reason you disbelieve in such entity is the same reason you will disbelieve a whole class of them (or should be if you are consistent and rational). Mind you it leaves an opening to new evidence. But there is certainly a second class of atheism , which is disbelief in god independent of the absence of evidence. People which simply don't believe in god and just shrug it. The last case is probably less rational.
 
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Good point. Just make a rational argument for the non-existence of god/ddess(e/s) then... :)

cj x
Zeus is the god of thunder and lightning.

We now know that lightning is a meteorological phenomena, not hurled by a god.

Okay, one down. A billion to go.
 
Atheism isn't a choice or decision. Rejecting a previously held belief might involve choice or a positive decision, but atheism is just the state in which a person remains until presented with compelling reasons to believe in one or more gods.

I'm an atheist because no one has presented a rational argument for non-atheism.

Agreed entirely with the first paragraph, but you are here including agnosticism as atheism - Weak Atheism (which is a not a perjorative, but a definition, from Flew as I recall). Such ana tatheist does not believe in the non-existence of Gods - they simply have no reason to conclude Gods exist.

So my original formulation was as Mojo showed deeply flawed -- I'm not looking for rational arguments for atheism, but for the non-existence of Gods - the claim of Strong Atheism. :)

cj x
 
Zeus is the god of thunder and lightning.

We now know that lightning is a meteorological phenomena, not hurled by a god.

Okay, one down. A billion to go.


How do you know Zeus does not work through physical causality? TH Huxley raised this problem with claims that Darwinism disproved teleology. I have no reason to assume from this Zeus does not exist - you have simply described the mechanism by which Zeus interacts with the natural world?

cj x
 
Nope. Any it doesn't?

cj x

[glib comment]
Any evidence that magical pixies don't exist? Any evidence that a stoiacktaplabst doesn't exist?
[/glib comment]

I'm not going to say that the burden of proof is on those claiming God's existence, since I would agree that God is the social default. I made the glib comment merely to demonstrate the difficulties of proving non-existence. It seems it would be easier for those making a positive claim to provide positive evidence. So again, I'm not shifting the burden of proof, but I am commenting on the ease of a shifted burden of proof. Pragmatism can be rational...
 
Which Gods/Goddeses do I disbelieve in?

cj x

I thought I had a recollection that you had said you were an Anglican and believed in that doctrine? So I assumed that you did not believe in the non-Anglican gods?
 
It seems to me that atheism only needs rationalising if you are rejecting a religious stance and embracing atheism. For me, there has never been a need to rationalise it. I was born an atheist, unadulterated and pure of irrational nonsense, I'm trying to keep it up, succeeding, mostly. :)
 
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How do you know Zeus does not work through physical causality? TH Huxley raised this problem with claims that Darwinism disproved teleology. I have no reason to assume from this Zeus does not exist - you have simply described the mechanism by which Zeus interacts with the natural world?

cj x

Does Zeus jobshare with Thor?
 

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