Easter, Yule, and Pagan Christmas

[arthwollipot]

With all due respect, I don't see where cj's contention that Jeremiah 10 wasn't referring to a Christmas tree is refuted in that thread. It seems to veer off into a discussion of mail order burning crosses almost immediately.

I'm just sayin'....

There were a couple of reasons discussed before it was derailed - in particular by The Man and by Greediguts. I'd be perfectly happy to discuss them again here though.

 

[cj.23]

Go for it, I'm interested. My probblem si while you might perfectly well argue that the Old Testament prescription applies ot modern Christmas trees -- I don't, for reasons i staed over there - on theological grounds, no one can in the slightest show a link between a first half of the second millenium BCE custon in the Ancient Near East and a second half of the second millenium custon in Northern Europe. Correlation is not causality, and christmas trees in my opinion owe as much to shrines to Sshtoreth or Ashereh as say Horus has to do with the festival - bugger all

cj x

 

[arthwollipot]

Let me clarify -

Jeremiah 10 refers to a tree being a pagan symbol. It also refers to other pagan symbols, and is, as was pointed out in that thread, a warning for Israelites who find themselves in other cultures not to adopt the traditions of those cultures.

Personally I'd find it a bit of a stretch to think that a tree, cut down and brought inside, decked with silver and gold, and nailed down to stop it moving (?) does not describe the Christmas tree as we know it.

 

[Slayhamlet]

There were a couple of reasons discussed before it was derailed - in particular by The Man and by Greediguts. I'd be perfectly happy to discuss them again here though.

The Man's post seems more like an off-topic polemic against Christianity than any sort of historical refutation. He doesn't address the historical origin of the Christmas tree at all. Greediguts's post disputes that the biblical passage is even making any reference to a tree being set up after it was cut down, but rather to its being used as material for making idols.

What am I missing here?

 

[arthwollipot]

Nope, I think that pretty much sums it up.

I responded to cj from memory, without first re-checking the thread. In retrospect that was a mistake. There is no serious historical discussion there. However, I haven't done a great deal of research on the matter. So far as I can tell, the origin of what we today think of as the christmas tree goes back to ancient Persia, where it was a Mithraic tradition.

I feel that it is quite reasonable to suggest that Jeremiah is referring to pagan traditions in general, and will concede this portion of the discussion.

 

[Big Les]

How does it down Christianity? That they can't be credited with coming up with everything?

Sorry that I kind of forgot about this thread.

Confusion here I think. I said "does down" in the sense of "to do down". IOW to latch onto pagan origins for christian rituals in order to do them down - to slag them off, to criticise them. I'm not saying that it actually achieves this, I just suspect that as a motivation (I know I had it as one when I would say "it's all nicked from the pagans").

 

[godless dave]

cj.23, how about you find where in the Bible it says Jesus was born in December?

You won't find one. You will, however, find plenty of evidence that Roman pagans had a holiday on December 25, and that Germanic pagans celebrated Yule around the Winter Solstice.

 

[cj.23]

cj.23, how about you find where in the Bible it says Jesus was born in December?

You won't find one. You will, however, find plenty of evidence that Roman pagans had a holiday on December 25, and that Germanic pagans celebrated Yule around the Winter Solstice.

Dave, did you read the thread? Nowhere in the Bible does it say Jesus was born in December - I explained how the tradition arose. And if you have plenty of evidence of that second paragraph, that is exactly what I want. Go on post it - primary sources please!

cj x

 

[AWPrime]

Go for it, I'm interested. My probblem si while you might perfectly well argue that the Old Testament prescription applies ot modern Christmas trees -- I don't, for reasons i staed over there - on theological grounds, no one can in the slightest show a link between a first half of the second millenium BCE custon in the Ancient Near East and a second half of the second millenium custon in Northern Europe. Correlation is not causality, and christmas trees in my opinion owe as much to shrines to Sshtoreth or Ashereh as say Horus has to do with the festival - bugger all
cj x

I can't even see why you can argue this on theological grounds. Abrahamic religions have a strong element of forcing the worship of god and not creation (a constant struggle for monotheism). Although some sects have a very paganistic view of monotheism. Things like tree decoration and other seasonal celebrations clearly violate this core principle.