Israel begins ground operations

WildCat said:
They can do it now, while Hamas is relatively weak or they can do it later, after Hamas has had more years with which to smuggle even more and better arms from their Iranian patrons and to train and build up their army.

The first "it" in "is it worth it" is Israels very existence.

It's funny that no one is mentioning Iran in these threads, as if they were just a casual bystander.
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Apparently when you want to scare the kiddies into eating thier vegetables you tell them that Hamas will destroy thier nation......yep, Hamas....will destroy one of the largest most advanced armed forces in the world. Only a moron would believe it possible but you don't necessarily have to be a moron to try to scare kiddies into eating thier vegetables by chanting it.


yell IRAN a lot too, that works.

this miserable pisfarting Hamas will annihalate Israel!! one day...........some day........please believe me kiddies.
 
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If Hamas had the means, they definitely would exterminate the Jews from Israel, I have absolutely no doubt about it.

Alot of extremists both from left and right like to compare Israel to Nazi Germany. Israel has the means, but there is no evidence and nothing that they've done shows that it is their intention to exterminate Arabs, it's been 60 years and counting and they haven't attempted anything like it, it's not part of their rhetoric, they do not teach their young to kill Arabs, etc. Hamas on the other hand...

I agree Fool that we musn't inflate Hamas's threat, but one needs to understand that they would it they could.
 
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a_unique_person said:
For all the claims of Hamas having stockpiles of advanced weapons, I haven't seen any sign of it to date.
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We've already seen they have Grads, courtesy of Iran. Whether the Iranian anti-tank weapons they are rumored to have is reality we will soon find out. Hezbollah certainly had them in Lebanon.

If Hamas survives this and Israel gives in to pressure to end the blockade you can be certain that better and more lethal Iranian arms will find their way to Gaza.
 
Pardalis said:
If Hamas had the means, they definitely would exterminate the Jews from Israel, I have absolutely no doubt about it.
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And there are more then a few right-wing Zionists who would love to ethnically cleanse Israel and the West Bank of every living soul that is not a Jew.
 
The Fool said:
Apparently when you want to scare the kiddies into eating thier vegetables you tell them that Hamas will destroy thier nation......yep, Hamas....will destroy one of the largest most advanced armed forces in the world. Only a moron would believe it possible but you don't necessarily have to be a moron to try to scare kiddies into eating thier vegetables by chanting it.


yell IRAN a lot too, that works.

this miserable pisfarting Hamas will annihalate Israel!! one day...........some day........please believe me kiddies.
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If Israel pulls out of Gaza without ending Hamas as a viable military force then Hamas will have shown they don't need to actually destroy Israel's army. And Hamas has shown they will use whatever means they have to attack Israel. Yesterday it was homemade Qassams, today it is Iranian-made Grad missiles, tomorrow they will use Iranian missiles with even longer ranges, a bigger warhead, and greater accuracy.

Do you think Israel is sustainable as a nation with a hundred missiles striking random civilian targets every single day?

Israel has no choice but to fight back, or it will cease to exist. That is reality.
 
During the Civil War, there were a lot of displays of honor on by both sides. I recommend Reflections on the Civil War by Catton. I'll try to tell one of Catton's stories (don't have the book any more):

A couple confederates had befriended some union soldiers they were encamped next to and invited them to a party on the confederate side. The Union soldiers went and through bad luck, an officer happened to stumble on the party. He immediately tried to arrest the Union soldiers, but the confederates intervened, saying they had given their word the Yanks would have safe passage. The officer let the Yanks go, rather than see the Rebs break their word.

Lee's decision not to engage in guerilla warfare could also be construed as honorable (also the generous surrender conditions Grant gave Lee at Appamatox). The "Christmas Truce" during WWI could also be argued to be an honorable act.
 
Malerin said:
During the Civil War, there were a lot of displays of honor on by both sides. I recommend Reflections on the Civil War by Catton. I'll try to tell one of Catton's stories (don't have the book any more):

A couple confederates had befriended some union soldiers they were encamped next to and invited them to a party on the confederate side. The Union soldiers went and through bad luck, an officer happened to stumble on the party. He immediately tried to arrest the Union soldiers, but the confederates intervened, saying they had given their word the Yanks would have safe passage. The officer let the Yanks go, rather than see the Rebs break their word.
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Probably pickets, such interactions were common then among pickets.

But such acts were far overshadowed by the horrendous POW camps of both sides, not to mention the guerilla war in border states such as Missouri and Kansas that persisted even after the Civil War proper had ended.
 
Malerin said:
During the Civil War, there were a lot of displays of honor on by both sides. I recommend Reflections on the Civil War by Catton. I'll try to tell one of Catton's stories (don't have the book any more):

A couple confederates had befriended some union soldiers they were encamped next to and invited them to a party on the confederate side. The Union soldiers went and through bad luck, an officer happened to stumble on the party. He immediately tried to arrest the Union soldiers, but the confederates intervened, saying they had given their word the Yanks would have safe passage. The officer let the Yanks go, rather than see the Rebs break their word.

Lee's decision not to engage in guerilla warfare could also be construed as honorable (also the generous surrender conditions Grant gave Lee at Appamatox). The "Christmas Truce" during WWI could also be argued to be an honorable act.
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Then there was Sherman's march through Georgia, POW treatment on both sides etc. The Civil War was one of the most brutal wars ever fought by any country in history. You can point out individual anecdotes but the fact is that war is never fought "honorably" as in giving the other guy a fair chance. That gets you dead. Grant was magnanumus because he had defeated Lee. While he fought Lee no quarter was given or asked.
 
WildCat said:
If Israel pulls out of Gaza without ending Hamas as a viable military force then Hamas will have shown they don't need to actually destroy Israel's army. And Hamas has shown they will use whatever means they have to attack Israel. Yesterday it was homemade Qassams, today it is Iranian-made Grad missiles, tomorrow they will use Iranian missiles with even longer ranges, a bigger warhead, and greater accuracy.

Do you think Israel is sustainable as a nation with a hundred missiles striking random civilian targets every single day?

Israel has no choice but to fight back, or it will cease to exist. That is reality.
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No that is not reality, that is bollocks. I don't believe you are a stupid person but I believe you believe that stupid things need to be chanted sometimes for propaganda purposes. Hamas can't and never will be able to be anything but a fleabite to Israel. You know this...why persist with the bollocks.

and please....the "tomorrow the world" stuff....really, whats next?....eventually hamas will get a death ray and knock the moon out of orbit?
 
The Fool said:
No that is not reality, that is bollocks. I don't believe you are a stupid person but I believe you believe that stupid things need to be chanted sometimes for propaganda purposes. Hamas can't and never will be able to be anything but a fleabite to Israel. You know this...why persist with the bollocks.

and please....the "tomorrow the world" stuff....really, whats next?....eventually hamas will get a death ray and knock the moon out of orbit?
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Who said anything about "tomorrow, the world"?

Do you think Hamas will stop seeking any missiles bigger than the Grad from Iran? Do you think Iran won't supply them with bigger missiles? Do you think Hamas wouldn't use them when they get them?

Funny, you ignore all that. But hey, you're not worried about it from your comfy chair in sunny Oz, so why should the Israelis care, right? :rolleyes:
 
Pardalis said:
Well they were going to get brainwashed by their Hamas fathers if they stayed alive anyway, but the Israeli retaliation will further the resentment and hatred too I agree. So damned if you do, damned if you don't. A real mess.
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what the hell?

a post of yours and i 100% agree.
 
I think the whole idea of "war with honor" is not only fallacious but dangerous. I think war should be brutal and should come to conclusive ends because with the idea of a "sanitized" war running around people might start thinking war isn't so bad and might not have the necessary motivation to try and avoid it where possible.
 
parky76 said:
And there are more then a few right-wing Zionists who would love to ethnically cleanse Israel and the West Bank of every living soul that is not a Jew.
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You will find such extremists in every country on earth. Israel is no special and no exception.

Edited by Cleon: 

Personal attack removed.
 
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TheFool said:
Hamas....will destroy one of the largest most advanced armed forces in the world.
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So now Israel is one of the largest armies in the world?? Where'd you get that information?

You think it is a question of how big or advanced one army is against a terrorist organization fighting at its own territory?
It doesn't take much to make life a living hell for the Israeli civilians bordering with Gaza and its terroristic organizations.
If you start putting yourself in other's shoes maybe you will begin to understand how it is living with a terroristic organization next to your house.
 
WildCat said:
Do you think Hamas will stop seeking any missiles bigger than the Grad from Iran? Do you think Iran won't supply them with bigger missiles? Do you think Hamas wouldn't use them when they get them?
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From a practical standpoint, there is a limit to the tech Hamas can both store, keep hidden, and deploy quickly. For example, Frogfoot class missiles are to big and too maintenance intensive to fit into their MO for the near future.

If they start getting ahold of a misslie family that is large enough for a modest GPS guidance package, life changes a lot. See Google Earth for your target data base. What you and I can use on the internet today was, twenty years ago, the sort of thing not typically available. How that would be stored and maintained is a non trivial logistical problem.

DR
 
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Darth Rotor said:
From a practical standpoint, there is a limit to the tech Hamas can both store, keep hidden, and deploy quickly. For example, Frogfoot class missiles are to big and too maintenance intensive to fit into their MO for the near future.

If they start getting ahold of a misslie family that is large enough for a modest GPS guidance package, life changes a lot. See Google Earth for your target data base. What you and I can use on the internet today was, twenty years ago, the sort of thing not typically available. How that would be stored and maintained is a non trivial logistical problem.

DR
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If Hamas is able to prevent Israel from entering Gaza because of either imternational pressure or by armed force their options as far as keeping missiles stored, hidden, and deployed greatly increase.

Just look at how easily Saddam was able to hide Scuds during GWI, and those needed a flatbed truck to move around on!

Hamas doesn't need a missile nearly as big to reach all of Israel. And if Gaza is given control of their ports as some here have demanded (or even worse, allowed to open the airport) there is no check on what Hamas can import.
 
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