Israel begins ground operations

Texas said:
It appears that the plan is to overthrow Hamas and allow Fatah to take control. Hamas appears to be very isolated at the moment by most Arab States. I don't believe Israel has any desire to re-occupy Gaza.
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Ah, yeah, that makes sense.

Of course, IIRC Hamas gained power because Fatah wasn't taking care of the Palestinian people properly, and Hamas was supposed to be getting rid of the status quo. Well, new boss, old boss I guess.
 
Tsukasa Buddha said:
Ah, yeah, that makes sense.

Of course, IIRC Hamas gained power because Fatah wasn't taking care of the Palestinian people properly, and Hamas was supposed to be getting rid of the status quo. Well, new boss, old boss I guess.
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It all comes down to a simple equation...is the destruction of Israel more important than building a country. That is what every mother of a suicide bomber in Gaza or the West Bank has to decide. If the Mothers decide their children are more than weapons then there will be an independent Palestinian state.
 
parky76 said:
There used to be some sense of honor in warfare. Not anymore.

There is nothing honorable..nothing courageous..about attacking an enemy armed with mortors and AK-47s..with 1,000 pound bombs and laser guided missiles from the safety of a F-16 at 10,000 feet.
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It is plain to see that parky76 has never seen combat up close.
What complete nonsense and utter stupidity in one post.

parky76 said:
Cool. Now let the real fighting begin. I hope Hamas kicks some butt. Even the score a little. Show the Israelis that 4 Jews DOES NOT equal 400 Arabs.
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I'm sure Randi is so proud to have a terrorism supporter in his forum.
At least now we know who we're dealing with in this forum.
 
Texas said:
It all comes down to a simple equation...is the destruction of Israel more important than building a country. That is what every mother of a suicide bomber in Gaza or the West Bank has to decide. If the Mothers decide their children are more than weapons then there will be an independent Palestinian state.
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I find that to be quite naïve: If indeed it were for the mothers to decide, there probably would be an Palestinian state already. But naiveté aside, there is some truth in what you say: namely that of emancipation of women, and that they should have much more to say in regards to politics and everyday administration. After all, their experiences will set the tone for how children perceive their situation and possible future. But that will only happen if Palestinians gain some normality in their everyday lives; something tangible to look forward to; something other than continuance of occupation and territorial disregard without end in sight.

Sadly, the 'facts on the ground' are already such that a reasonable territorial agreement is nowhere in sight. The Israeli settlements are hardly going anywhere anymore, the separation barrier is not going anywhere either (maybe after some minor adjustments it will perhaps be the future border), control over water resources is thus going to be out of reach for the Palestinians in the future as well. Realistically, there's not much to bargain for. Hence, 'no viable end in sight' is probably the hardest barrier to break. Peace, in and of itself, is not tangible enough, that much we know.

Ending all acts of terrorism would certainly give the Palestinians more diplomatic bargain power however, but that wouldn't prevent them for getting a rotten deal in return anyway, and they probably know that all too well (and so does Israel). They should have understood that a long time ago already. Today, at the very best, they might achieve a deal where they could share resources with the Israeli settlers. But for having reasonable control over them... not a chance! That ship sailed away with Arafat's blunders, especially in regards to the gulf war. The real question is probably how much more must slip out of their reach in order for them to consider a crappy deal thats left for them? It's getting crappier all the time.
 
yairhol said:
It is plain to see that parky76 has never seen combat up close.
What complete nonsense and utter stupidity in one post.
I'm sure Randi is so proud to have a terrorism supporter in his forum.
At least now we know who we're dealing with in this forum.
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Do you support the blockade upon Gaza that sought to only allow in enough food and medicine to prevent a "humanitarian disaster"?

Do you know that this blockade was NOT in response to any violent actions against Israel by Hamas?

This blockade, in my humble opinion, was a war crime, and anyone who supported this move, is a supporter of war crimes.

I'm sure Randi is proud to have a supporter of war crimes in this forum.

And btw...the reason as far as my support for Israel getting their butt kicked?...perhaps I am just supporting David against Goliath.

or maybe I am just @#$%&$% sick of it all.
 
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parky76 said:
Do you support the blockade upon Gaza that sought to only allow in enough food and medicine to prevent a "humanitarian disaster"?

Do you know that this blockade was NOT in response to any violent actions against Israel by Hamas?

This blockade, in my humble opinion, was a war crime, and anyone who supported this move, is a supporter of war crimes.
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It's not a war crime according to any definition that matters.

I'm sure Randi is proud to have a supporter of war crimes in this forum.
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Bizarre.

And btw...the reason as far as my support for Israel getting their butt kicked?...perhaps I am just supporting David against Goliath.

or maybe I am just @#$%&$% sick of it all.
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No, you're just sick.
 
WildCat said:
It's not a war crime according to any definition that matters.
.
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denying any amount of food, medicine, fuel, and civilian supplies is a war crime.

what does food have to do with fighting terrorism? medicine?

this was a move to force the Palestinians to rebel against Hamas...using basic living neccessities as a weapon. This is a war crime.
 
parky76 said:
denying any amount of food, medicine, fuel, and civilian supplies is a war crime.
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No, it's not.

Which is completely separate from the fact that Israel hasn't blocked food and medicine. If there are shortages of those things it's because Hamas is taking that which Israel allows through.

what does food have to do with fighting terrorism? medicine?

this was a move to force the Palestinians to rebel against Hamas...using basic living neccessities as a weapon. This is a war crime.
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Please show where a blockade is a war crime. Fact is, Israel is the only country in the world that is expected to supply a country at war with them food and medicine and fuel.
 
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Please keep this discussion civil and polite. Recognize that reasonable people are going to disagree on such a divisive matter. (Which doesn't mean that all possible positions are reasonable, but it does mean that disagreeing with your own position doesn't make that person irrational, immoral, or insane.) Do not personalize the argument.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Myriad
 
WildCat said:
Denying your enemy war materiel is not "collective punishment". It wasn't just "Palestinian militants" firing rockets at Israel, it was the army of the government of Gaza!
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Ah, I see. So now grain, rice, and medicine...brought in by the United Nations are "war materials".

I guess you are right. The Palestinian people of Gaza are the enemy. Anything that keeps them alive is "war material".

Is that what you are trying to say?

Fascism is alive and well at JREF.
 
parky76 said:
Ah, I see. So now grain, rice, and medicine...brought in by the United Nations are "war materials".
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They are not blocking such shipments!



I guess you are right. The Palestinian people of Gaza are the enemy. Anything that keeps them alive is "war material".

Is that what you are trying to say?
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No.

Fascism is alive and well at JREF.
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You think I'm a fascist now? :boggled:
 
WildCat said:
They are not blocking such shipments!
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"On December 15, 2008, following a statement in which he described the embargo on Gaza a 'crime against humanity', United Nations human rights investigator Richard A. Falk was prevented from entering the Palestinian territories by Israeli authorities and expelled from the region."

"Addressing a special session [official website] of the UN Human Rights Council (UNHRC) in Geneva, UN High Commissioner for Human Rights Louise Arbour [official profile] said [transcript] Wednesday that Israel's policy of collective punishment, disproportionate use of force and targeted killings, coupled with the Palestinian militant practice of indiscriminate firings of bombs and rockets, has led to the current crisis in the Gaza Strip. Israel had compounded the situation, she said, by blockading Gaza, preventing citizens from getting basic necessities such as food, gas, water, electricity and medicine. "
http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/paperchase/2008/01/un-rights-chief-slams-israeli-blockade.php

Are you calling the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights a liar?
Are you a fascist? I'm not sure. But your words seem to suggest the possibility of fascist attitudes.
 
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parky76 said:
"On December 15, 2008, following a statement in which he described the embargo on Gaza a 'crime against humanity', United Nations human rights investigator Richard A. Falk was prevented from entering the Palestinian territories by Israeli authorities and expelled from the region."

"Addressing a special session [official website] of the UN Human Rights Council (UNHRC) in Geneva, UN High Commissioner for Human Rights Louise Arbour [official profile] said [transcript] Wednesday that Israel's policy of collective punishment, disproportionate use of force and targeted killings, coupled with the Palestinian militant practice of indiscriminate firings of bombs and rockets, has led to the current crisis in the Gaza Strip. Israel had compounded the situation, she said, by blockading Gaza, preventing citizens from getting basic necessities such as food, gas, water, electricity and medicine. "

http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/paperchase/2008/01/un-rights-chief-slams-israeli-blockade.php

Are you calling the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights and a liar?
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No, I'm calling her a useful idiot. I love the bit from the Jurist where Syria is portrayed as a champion of human rights. Syria is an actual fascist regime!

Are you a fascist? I'm not sure. But your words seem to suggest the possibility of fascist attitudes.
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:rolleyes:
 
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