John Travolta's 16-year old son dies

[ponderingturtle]

If it turns out that their religious beliefs lead to their son's death, as hinted by many in this thread and the "detox" thing, you have my full consent to mock them, Articulett, because this time, religion really was the cause.

And remember neglecting your children because of your religion is legally protected.

 

[chillzero]

Few things to note here:

It's pretty obvious, for most of us who know autism, that Jett Travolta was autistic. Whether his parents were dealing with that or not, I have no idea. I won't slam them for not confronting his autism when none of us really know if they did or they didn't. We can guess that they didn't because they were Scientologists-but we don't know.

There's no evidence that Jett was going through Scientology detox. What Preston said is that her son was on a "detox diet". I'm not sure what that entails, but, looking at photos of the boy, he did have a weight problem. So, it's not unlikely that the "detox diet" was just that: a diet.

It's possible that Scientology played a role in the boy's death. It's equally possible that his death was an accident. In any case, whatever they may have done wrong as parents, Preston and Travolta are paying the ultimate price now, and I'm sad for them.

I say, wait and see what the autopsy reveals before speculating. Cause right now, everyone is like a talking head. There just isn't enough info available yet to be able to form the whole picture.

I agree with this post.

Hopefully people will stop getting personal until we gather more information, and see what the official conclusions are. None of us have a personal stake in this, after all, so let's keep the discussion civil.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Your opinions of my questions mean nothing to me. You are using a terrible tragedy to slam scientology without any evidence whatsoever. This is shameful.

And there is evidence. The parents story does not add up, so they are either misinformed or lying about something. Something is being hidden or was misinterpreted for some reason.

The child seemed likely to have problems that the church would not have treated properly.

We do not have conclusive evidence, but there is evidence that does fit with the idea that the churches beliefs might have played a roll in this.

 

[articulett]

I want to clarify that I never said religion caused his death. I cannot help it if the apologists heard that.

I said it looks like it played a role. Although a death certificate will give a single cause-- trauma to the head I'm guessing in this case. This will probably be attributed to a fall from a seizure which the kid was known to have (though I'm not sure an autopsy could prove that the head trauma was definitely caused by a fall from a seizure since there were no witnesses to the death.) We probably will never know more than we can know now.

There's a lot of "if not for X, then the death would not have occurred." Scientology appears to be one of those variables in the equation. Head trauma seems to be the final chain in the events leading to his death.

I do wish people who cannot hear the difference between "played a role in" and "caused" would put me on ignore. The straw men get old. I think it's "despicable" to accuse people of saying things they did not say because of wrongful inferences and "shameful" to hang on to the straw man interpretation despite corrections.

 

[desertgal]

And there is evidence. The parents story does not add up, so they are either misinformed or lying about something. Something is being hidden or was misinterpreted for some reason.

Preston and Travolta are not required to share their children's medical issues with the rest of the world, nor are they required to defend their decisions as parents. It is speculation that they were misinformed or lying, and we don't know what their whole "story" is.

We do not have conclusive evidence, but there is evidence that does fit with the idea that the churches beliefs might have played a roll in this.

There is no such evidence. It is speculation that Scientology beliefs may have played a roll in his death. The only evidence we have is that Jett Travolta appeared to be autistic, and that his mother said that he had been diagnosed with Kawasaki Syndrome as a child. That's it. Whether any of that relates to his death is yet to be determined.

"Evidence" and "speculation" are two different things.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Preston and Travolta are not required to share their children's medical issues with the rest of the world, nor are they required to defend their decisions as parents. It is speculation that they were misinformed or lying, and we don't know what their whole "story" is.

So when they do put information out there that is clearly wrong, what should be thought? Sure they don't have to say anything, but they are, and medical experts are saying that what they are saying makes no sense.

They are either being mislead by quacks, mislead by their religion, or lying.

 

[ponderingturtle]

It should be noted that epileptics in scientology seem to have a high rate of these kinds of deaths.

see link

 

[articulett]

And we are allowed to speculate here... this is a critical thinking forum, after all. As far as I know the Travoltas do not need to be protected from our speculation since they are unlikely to be members here.

No matter what happened, the coroner cannot find Scientology the "cause" of death.
But just as the Jehovah Witness is not the "cause" of death by excessive blood loss, their failure to allow for transfusions is implicated in the death of those when treatment is refused for religious reasons. The same for Scientology and seizure disorders.

Good link, PT. Scientologists clearly believe that with enough Scientology courses, mental health is guaranteed.

 

[desertgal]

So when they do put information out there that is clearly wrong, what should be thought? Sure they don't have to say anything, but they are, and medical experts are saying that what they are saying makes no sense.

Right now, they aren't saying anything. What they said was that the boy was diagnosed with KS as a toddler. Period. And they each said it in interviews seven and eight years ago. They haven't denied autism or confirmed autism. (I was incorrect earlier when I said that Preston had denied autism. That was my mistake. She hasn't addressed the topic either way. My bad.) They haven't said that KS had anything to do with his death. They haven't said the boy was going through Scientology detox recently-they said he went through it when he was diagnosed as a toddler. They haven't even said that the boy still had KS. The media is taking quotes from interviews that took place years ago and attributing them, out of context, to Travolta and Preston today.

They are either being mislead by quacks, mislead by their religion, or lying.

Possibly. I don't know. What I am saying is that, perhaps, the autopsy report should at least be published before speculation begins. Cause there just aren't enough facts yet.

 

[desertgal]

And we are allowed to speculate here... this is a critical thinking forum, after all. As far as I know the Travoltas do not need to be protected from our speculation since they are unlikely to be members here.

I know that. But, speculation isn't evidence. If you want to speculate, fire away. Just don't quote it as fact. Facts are critical to critical thinking.

ETA: And keep in mind, while you are speculating, that you are villifying two parents who just lost a child based on absolutely nothing. You have no way of knowing what happened yesterday, or what led up to it. Your speculation, at this point, is on level with tabloid journalism.

 

[Undesired Walrus]

Articulett, I -and I'm sure many others- find your consistent cries of 'apologist' to anyone who asks you for evidence on these issues juvenile and crap.

 

[Rob Lister]

Articulett, I -and I'm sure many others- find your consistent cries of 'apologist' to anyone who asks you for evidence on these issues juvenile and crap.

But more interestingly, asks said people to "hang out with their own kind".

 

[Smackety]

Poor kid. Seizure disorders are so frequently fatal when untreated. I hope the $cientologists leave John alone and let him grieve like a human being for awhile.

Too bad there weren't any clears around to fix him. I guess John is short on cash lately.

 

[MG1962]

And we are allowed to speculate here... this is a critical thinking forum, after all.

Yeah lucky that, anywhere else it would be called what it really is, malicious gossip

 

[ponderingturtle]

I do not think and am unlikely to be convinced that it is wrong to suspect that the teachings of the church were involved in this event. They do have a history around epilepsy and discouraging proper treatment.

 

[Confuseling]

I do not think and am unlikely to be convinced that it is wrong to suspect that the teachings of the church were involved in this event. They do have a history around epilepsy and discouraging proper treatment.

True enough - but some of the posts in this thread have been tasteless.

IT'S A DEAD KID GUYS.

You don't have to be the first to post. You can wait. For facts.

 

[desertgal]

I do not think and am unlikely to be convinced that it is wrong to suspect that the teachings of the church were involved in this event. They do have a history around epilepsy and discouraging proper treatment.

Suspect all you want. But, what you said was that there is evidence to support that suspicion in this case. There isn't evidence. There is just speculation. It hasn't even been proven that the kid had epilepsy, much less that it was untreated.

Nobody knows what happened yet. First and foremost, the Travoltas are newly bereaved parents. Jeez, they haven't even had the chance to bury their son yet and they are being accused of killing him, based on nothing but speculation and some old quotes.

Pretty sad.

 

[Drudgewire]

You don't have to be the first to post. You can wait. For facts.

Hi, welcome to the Internet. Enjoy your stay, and be sure to check out our pornography collection. It's pretty impressive.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Suspect all you want. But, what you said was that there is evidence to support that suspicion in this case.

History is evidence.

If it can be shown that you have done something repeatedly in the past, you do not get to claim it is unfair that other are suspicious of you doing it again.

 

[desertgal]

History is evidence.

No, it isn't.

If it can be shown that you have done something repeatedly in the past, you do not get to claim it is unfair that other are suspicious of you doing it again.

You can back that statement up, right? Show us where Preston and Travolta, specifically, neglected their child's medical issues repeatedly. Show us, even, where and when Jett Travolta was diagnosed with epilepsy. If "history is evidence", where's your evidence?