Easter, Yule, and Pagan Christmas

[sophia8]

(The Plymouth Brethren are the folks responsible for that oddity of North American Protestantism known as Dispensationalism, and the unique belief in the Rapture, now common across the USA though unknown to Christianity almost everywhere else and for most of the religions history. I often think it might be why US Protestantism is so odd (I almost said heretical

The Plymouth Brethren were also responsible for Aleister Crowley. His family were all Brethren and he was bought up in the faith; as a teenager he started calling himself 'The Great Beast' chiefly to annoy his mother. So it's quite possible that without the Plymouth Brethren, modern Satanism wouldn't have developed.

 

[cj.23]

The Plymouth Brethren were also responsible for Aleister Crowley. His family were all Brethren and he was bought up in the faith; as a teenager he started calling himself 'The Great Beast' chiefly to annoy his mother. So it's quite possible that without the Plymouth Brethren, modern Satanism wouldn't have developed.

yep, good Old Crowley's Ales of Leamington - his father was a teetotal brewer. I'm not sure I would blame Uncle Al for modern Satanism though - I'm a big fan - though sadly my beloved cat Crowley died this week, aged 17 years.

Maybe unusual interests for an "Anglican Apologist" - actually probably not.

Happy new year Sophia8!

cj x

 

[This Guy]

Titus Ælius Adrianus Antoninus Pius Augustus Cæsar is emperor Antoninus Pius, not emperor Titus.
Emperor Titus was a different person entirely (Titus Caesar Vespasianus Augustus).

I'm not sure of your point.

The entire name was in the post. If you read the entire post I'm sure you saw that I provided the dudes full name in the lower quote. I did that expressly to show exactly whom the apology was addressed to. My "short" name was just to make the point that it was addressed to the Emperor (of course the Senate and others were addressed also).

If anyone was stupid enough to only read part of the post, and draw conclusions from that part, rather than the whole, that's their problem. I assume no responsibility

 

[neltana]

Dunno - Spring seems as good as time to me, so I think nelltana has a sound point.

cj x

Well, in that case I'll defer to your obviously greater wisdom!

 

[Z]

I just wanted to toss in my view, as a somewhat-pagan.

From what I can tell, Eostre was an invention of Bede's to reconcile a festival name with his predilection for grafting Christian holy days to pre-existing festivals. Yes, there were many spring festivals, and a few may have referred to Astarte or Astoroth or whatever name this god/dess/demon carried where he resided, but the details he expounded were largely manufactured.

As to Yule, this is a very ancient celebration in many cultures, though usually under different names, and the exact connection to Christmas has always been a bit vague. After all, if the church really wanted to co-opt the holiday, why place it 3-4 days after the solstice? By then, the pagan celebrations were done with and the bonfire ashes long since scattered.

Always remember this about modern neo-pagans: it's not the antiquity of a deity they're interested in, only its practical attributes. That's why more pagans are honoring Caffeina these days...

 

[cj.23]

Always remember this about modern neo-pagans: it's not the antiquity of a deity they're interested in, only its practical attributes. That's why more pagans are honoring Caffeina these days...

Well said - and that is what is so attractive about neo-pagans. I must say I find them generally pragmatic and fun, and sensible.

cj x

 

[Z]

Well said - and that is what is so attractive about neo-pagans. I must say I find them generally pragmatic and fun, and sensible.

cj x

The problem I keep running into - and part of what's turning me away from the movement as well - is that for every pragmatic, fun, sensible n-p I know, I meet two or three other neo-fundie Wiccans who swear by Gardner or Buckland or some other source, who are just as close-minded and miserable as any Christian Bible-thumper out there.

Oh, and most of the pagan women I meet tend to be over 40 and around 300 lbs... Kind of turns you off the whole 'skyclad ritual' thing.

 

[Nogbad]

CJ

I am not sure I agree entirely. There are have been many religions down through the ages and only 365 days in a year. I don't think one can argue that there is no cross over between older celebrations and those adopted by the Christian Church. Especially those adopted once the Church was fully established in the late 4th century.

European traditions are bound up in the ecclesiastical calender be it a mid winter celebration, Spring rites or Harvest Home (probably one of the scary Pagan festivals). Yes Passover is an important factor but so was the Spring Equinox to northern Europeans. The two generally happen quite close together. There is absolutely no justification for choosing the 25th of December as Jesus' birthday other than "why not". Many stricter Calvinist types will not celebrate Christmas because it is unbiblical (think the Jovial Witnesses are the same)

The Church took existing customs and holidays and put their own interpretation on them perhaps most obviously with Halloween. The co-opting of Isis temples and dedicating them to Mary is another. This ensured the local populace were not too discombobulated by changes in the order of things and allowed the authorities to maintain a degree of control.

 

[Big Les]

I must say I'm surprised at some of the reactions to CJ's scepticism here. Most seem to just want to equate pagan and christian festivals because it makes intuitive sense and does down christianity. Well, that shouldn't be good enough for sceptics. If there's a real body of evidence connecting the festivals beyond convergence and analogy, it should stand on its own.

 

[Nogbad]

I must say I'm surprised at some of the reactions to CJ's scepticism here. Most seem to just want to equate pagan and christian festivals because it makes intuitive sense and does down christianity. Well, that shouldn't be good enough for sceptics. If there's a real body of evidence connecting the festivals beyond convergence and analogy, it should stand on its own.

I agree but there isn't much evidence for a 25th Dec birth date for Jesus so the start point is not exactly an easy one. All we know is that there was, from archaeological evidence, feasting at neolithic sites on the winter solstice. What this was called is academic. Feasting in the gloom of a northern winter just makes good sense from an agricultural point of view.

 

[tyr_13]

I must say I'm surprised at some of the reactions to CJ's scepticism here. Most seem to just want to equate pagan and christian festivals because it makes intuitive sense and does down christianity. Well, that shouldn't be good enough for sceptics. If there's a real body of evidence connecting the festivals beyond convergence and analogy, it should stand on its own.

How does it down Christianity? That they can't be credited with coming up with everything?

Sorry that I kind of forgot about this thread.

 

[bjornart]

Godt NytÅr! Most scholars of Scandianian pre-Christian religious practice place it originally as part of the Winter Nights, in October, the term being adopted for Christmas. I can dig out quite a lot on this I think if you are interested. I think my dad might well put out porridge - I'll have to ask him - his stories of Christmas in Danmark in the twenties and thirties are always worth hearing. Mind you I have an Ars Magica project to complete today, so I'd better get back to work...

cj x

Most scholars of Scandinavian pre-Christian religious practice would know that we have practically no sources to it. What little we have is in works like Snorre, collected well into the Christian period. Still, I'd be interested in what sources your mentioned scholars use to place Yule in October.

As to the practice of putting out porridge, the first references we have are from Christian times condemning those who follow the practice as worshipping, or at least placating, demons. I think that, along with other surrounding evidence, such as local naming of the supernaturals as the residents of burial mounds, or original settlers of a farm, proves to sufficient extent that this is the remainder of a pagan ritual of ancestor worship. Do you disagree?

 

[Hawk one]

I agree but there isn't much evidence for a 25th Dec birth datefor Jesus so the start point is not exactly an easy one.

Change that to "no evidence at all".

Heck, nobody even knows what -year- this supposed Jesus was born, as Dionysios didn't even get that right when he tried to re-engineer the Roman calendar for his own purpouses. Heck, probably the one thing we can be fairly confident about is that this alleged birth, if it happened like in the stories, probably wasn't in December at all, since that wouldn't be a season for shepherds to stay outside all night with their sheep (would be bloody cold if they did).

 

[GreNME]

As far as I'm aware, the December 25th date derives at least somewhat from some guesses made by early Christian leaders about when the birth took place. Some opined it may have been around the start of the new year, some guessed it to be in November, and I think one or two may have even guessed June-July or even around Easter as the birth time. I think that the date of December 25th won out in the debates for two reasons: 1. more Christian leaders in the fourth century probably thought it was around that time (though some argued January 6th, hence the "12 days of Christmas"), and 2. there was already celebrations based on non-Christian celebrations that the Christian churches could supplant with little resistance from the populace of people converting to the religion. Sure, it was likely a calculated move, but also a move that put an end to a somewhat divisive debate that had by that time lasted around two centuries-- keep in mind that in the fourth century wheels were being set into motion to unify the different sects into a single (Catholic - Universal) entity.

As for the Easter thing, I'm curious about the comment that the Egyptians painted eggs for the springtime, as this is a practice I'm not aware of as being part of Egyptian custom. Could it perhaps have been one of the many Hellenized customs the Egyptians adopted from the Greeks after Alexander's conquest and the Ptolemaic Dynasty? I do know the Persians had a practice of painting eggs, but this wasn't only for the springtime celebrations and the corresponding month on our gregorian calendar would have placed the celebration in late February to early March, not necessarily on the equinox and not corresponding to the Jewish Passover.

 

[arthwollipot]

I'm a little surprised no-one's brought this up yet:

Jeremiah 10

1 Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:

2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.

3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.

source

The Bible itself says that the christmas tree is a "heathen" tradition.

 

[cj.23]

I refer the honourable gentleman to my previous answer
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128959

cj x

 

[ImaginalDisc]

So, the preponderance of evidence remains that Christmas is a direct rip-off of pagan rites? Good to know.

 

[GreNME]

So, the preponderance of evidence remains that Christmas is a direct rip-off of pagan rites? Good to know.

If you wanted to word it in the worst manner possible-- almost.

 

[arthwollipot]

I refer the honourable gentleman to my previous answer
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128959

cj x

Unconvincing, sorry. For most of the reasons that were discussed in that thread.

 

[neltana]

Unconvincing, sorry. For most of the reasons that were discussed in that thread.

With all due respect, I don't see where cj's contention that Jeremiah 10 wasn't referring to a Christmas tree is refuted in that thread. It seems to veer off into a discussion of mail order burning crosses almost immediately.

I'm just sayin'....