Hafrada is worse than Apartheid

[FireGarden]

Do Israeli settlers have voting rights in PA elections? If not that is a clear cut case of Apartheid.

This just gets crazier.

ETA: I would like to be more constructive, really I would. But I can think of nothing to say to the above comment. So please take the above as an indication of my inability to understand your point of view and a request for clarification.

 

[gtc]

Why shouldn't people settle in Israel as long as they are not forcing someone else of the plot of land in the process.

I know of no country in the world that doesn't have some restrictions on immigration.

 

[gtc]

Spoils of war. In the sense that Israel has chosen to take the land but not the people on the land. And this makes sense to Texas.

That's not at all unusual - look at the way Germans were moved out of Czechoslovakia and Poland after WWII.

The creation of Israel represents just one of the population movements that took place following World War II.

 

[FireGarden]

That's not at all unusual - look at the way Germans were moved out of Czechoslovakia and Poland after WWII.

The creation of Israel represents just one of the population movements that took place following World War II.

We're talking about the West Bank, settlements, etc.

Yes, it's after WW2. But I don't see the relevance.

 

[Thunder]

That's not at all unusual - look at the way Germans were moved out of Czechoslovakia and Poland after WWII.

The creation of Israel represents just one of the population movements that took place following World War II.

The forced ethnic cleansing of Arabs from Israel had NOTHING to do with WW2. Attempting to make some sort of contextual connection, and thereby justifying it, is disgusting.

In that perspective, the expulsion of Jews fro Arab and Muslim lands was ALSO justified and okee dokee.

Is that now your argument?

 

[Skeptic]

The forced ethnic cleansing of Arabs from Israel had NOTHING to do with WW2.

True. It has, however, some slight connection to the Arab world's declaration of a war of annihilation on the Jewish state the very day it was established.

 

[Thunder]

True. It has, however, some slight connection to the Arab world's declaration of a war of annihilation on the Jewish state the very day it was established.

The Arab states declare war...and the Palestinians pay the price. Nice.

I guess since Israel declared war in 1967...that makes the Jews of the Arab states paying the price....a fair result?

 

[RandFan]

Not impressed. There are no good guys or bad guys in this whole mess. The "apartheid" label or (Hafrada) is an attempt to create a dichotomy of good and bad. It doesn't exist and trying to shoe horn this mess into a South African model doesn't solve any problems but to justify the atrocity carried out by the side you pick.

If it helps you sleep better at night then have at it but don't think it has any validity for those who are intellectually honest.

 

[Thunder]

Hafrada is bad. Apartheid was bad. Jim Crow was bad. Only one still exists though..and shows no signs of letting up.

 

[RandFan]

Hafrada is bad. Apartheid was bad. Jim Crow was bad. Only one still exists though..and shows no signs of letting up.

Oddly enough, suicide bombing is bad. Terrorism is bad. It's easy to identify bad. You haven't really told anyone anything they didn't already know.

 

[RandFan]

Hafrada is bad. Apartheid was bad. Jim Crow was bad. Only one still exists though..and shows no signs of letting up.

One more thing, there are some very significant differences between Apartheid, Jim Crow and so called "Hafrada". Still, dealing with all of the variables of this complex dynamic are hard and don't lend to myopic world views. Easier to go with pre-packaged rhetoric and overly simplistic models.

Yes, thinking and honesty can be difficult.

 

[Thunder]

Using lots of fancy words doesn't change the fact that the Israeli rule of the West Bank is not unlike the Apartheid regime of South Africa...and the Jim Crow state in the American South.

Racism is racism. There are no two ways around it.

 

[RandFan]

Using lots of fancy words doesn't change the fact that the Israeli rule of the West Bank is not unlike the Apartheid regime of South Africa...and the Jim Crow state in the American South.

Racism is racism. There are no two ways around it.

Ad hominem. Your tautology doesn't rebut my argument. Gainsaying isn’t just poor form it’s wrong.

FTR: They are not "fancy words". They are means to communicate ideas and arguments. Attacking the words I use is simply fallacy. Here's a hint, focus on the arguments and not the words. If you can figure out neither just ask and I'll try and help you out. Or, you could try Encarta, or Google, or www.dictionary.com.

You never know, you just might learn something.

 

[Thunder]

Hafrada is a racist regime. Its that simple. One rule for Jews..and another for Arabs..is racism.

 

[RandFan]

Hafrada is a racist regime. Its that simple. One rule for Jews..and another for Arabs..is racism.

Yeah, you are still not getting it. Is it intentional or are you really unable to understand my argument?

 

[Thunder]

Yeah, you are still not getting it. Is it intentional or are you really unable to understand my argument?

why don't you spell it out in laymans terms?

obviously you read the Wall St. Journal more then I. I am more of a Daily News man.

 

[RandFan]

Hafrada is a racist regime.

BTW: To the degree that Hafrada is a "racist regime", Hamas and other Palestinian groups are also racist. Those facts won't do much to resolve the problems but it makes for great rhetoric. So pick your side and the black and white world view will tell you who to denounce and who to support. It's circular reasoning but hey, why should valid logic be employed when our egos are on the line?

 

[UserGoogol]

And I see you have created this thread to prove my point.

You are comparing S. Africa's policies of vastly different legal status for its citizens based on skin color, to Israel's treating people different based on whether or not they're citizens of Israel.

If your bizarre comparison were legitimate, every country in the world is an apartheid regime. But, of course, the comparison falls flat on its face.

But no doubt you will continue with your histrionics, facts be damned.

I try to be as ambivalent as possible about the whole Israel-Palestine thing, (for a number of reasons) but that seems like a really really stupid argument. Citizenship is an entirely artificial legal construct. If South Africa had decided to say "whatever, you darkies aren't citizens anymore" that would've made things worse, not better. All that matters is that some people have rights that other people don't. To say that Hafrada and Apartheid are totally different because of the nature of these differences in rights is fine, but "citizenship" is just a word.

 

[RandFan]

why don't you spell it out in laymans terms?

There are no good guys. There are no bad guys. There are only two sides that hate each other. The Palestinians, unlike the African Americans and unlike Native South African's are not at all willing to work with Israel to find a solution.

Simply identifying Israel as the bad guy is dishonest and won't solve any problems.

 

[Thunder]

Israel, for all intensive purposes, governs the land, water, and air of the West Bank. Israel has all sorts of rules that apply differently between the Arab and Jewish residence of the West Bank, along with Arab and Jewish Israeli citizens.

-Arab Israelis...are NOT allowed to move into the Israeli settlements.
-Israel does not approve any building permits for Arabs...as would be the correct interpretation of the "occuping power" status in the UN Charter and the Geneva Conventions.
-Israel DOES approve building permits for Jews...which is the the exact opposite interepretation, and shows a severe bias based on citizenship and ethnicity.
-Israel does not update or build any new civilian infrastructure for the Arabs in the West Bank, yet they do for Jews.
-Israel routinely demolishes Arab structures built without a permit, but it takes an arm and a leg..and a Supreme Court decision, to get them to demolish an Israeli structure built without a permit.

I mean, give me a break. This is racism and discrimination. This is Hafrada.