Bigfoot: The Patterson Gimlin Film - Part 2

[William Parcher]

Been hunting and cant find any clear info- if anyone knows

1) Is there an accurate timeline from the time the film was allegedly sent for processing to the time of the first known showing.

2) Does anyone know if multiple copies were ordered at the time of initial processing?

3) Could generational copies of the original be made locally after it was processed or would they have to be done at the same type of lab?

4) Is there any record of the original being lab determined to see what the true resolution of the film in the camera was?

The image is striking; even some skeptics are impressed with the footage. But several issues, besides a complete lack of subsequent corroborative evidence, cast doubt on the film’s authenticity. Significant and troubling is the fact that the original film is missing. More importantly, three key issues cannot be resolved. According to Patterson and his partner that day, Bob Gimlin, the film was "mailed" from California on a Friday evening (approximately 9 p.m.) and arrived in Yakima, Washington, the next day. Supposedly processed on Saturday at an unidentified photography lab, the film was viewed by several Bigfoot buffs (including the late Rene Dahinden and John Green) on Sunday. The two surviving witnesses to these events, Bob Gimlin and Patterson's brother-in-law and financial partner Al Detley, have been unable or unwilling to explain how the film got to Yakima so quickly (in an era before overnight couriers), how the film was processed so quickly (in a time when development normally took a week), or even where the processing took place.

Skeptical Inquirer Nov/Dec 2008

 

[LONGTABBER PE]

Thats the version I have always heard, just wondering if its the "uncontested" version.

Does anyone know how long it would take to process a roll?

When did these other people get their copies?

 

[WildBackdunesMan]

William Parcher,
That is a great link that you posted. I have read it before. It is a good read for anyone, it scientifically proves that "Patty the Bigfoot" could not have made the tracks that Patterson claimed it to have. So either Patterson faked the entire film and everything, or he filmed a real bigfoot and then faked the footprints....which seems more likely to reasonable people.

It also catches Gimlin in a lie. Patty would have weighed well over a ton in order to make tracks deeper than the horses (with smaller surface areas on their hooves) were on the same soil. Also Patty was walking and the casts were flatfooted so believers cannot claim that perhaps Patty was sprinting to make deeper tracks.

 

[Aepervius]

That is a great link that you posted. I have read it before. It is a good read for anyone, it scientifically proves that "Patty the Bigfoot" could not have made the tracks that Patterson claimed it to have. So either Patterson faked the entire film and everything, or he filmed a real bigfoot and then faked the footprints....which seems more likely to reasonable people.

Just a nitpick, but I read that as you think that "reasonable people filmed a real BF and faked footprint is more reasonable than other hypothese".

I would like to know how you came to this conclusion. To me it is more likely that if he faked a bit, that is because in reality there was nothing and he had to make the whole shebang up. If there was a real BF, then there was no need to fake footprint and take the risk of being accused of hoaxing. Indeed it would be mroe reasonable to say "the rain washed it , and there were only as deep as ours to begin with, so sorry we have no cast". THAT would be a reasonable proposition. But this was not what was done.

So what is your logic in saying faking the print with a real BF is mroe reasonable than faking the whole.

 

[JohnWS]

So either Patterson faked the entire film and everything, or he filmed a real bigfoot and then faked the footprints....which seems more likely to reasonable people.

I'm thinking that the section quoted above should have ended with a '?'.

 

[WildBackdunesMan]

Aepervious and John WS
I made a mistake. It should read:

So either Patterson faked the entire film and everything, or he filmed a real bigfoot and then faked the footprints....which seems more likely to reasonable people?

As in, it makes more sense that he faked the whole "shebang".

 

[William Parcher]

Thats the version I have always heard, just wondering if its the "uncontested" version.

You will find variants on BFF. I think Noll said that DeAtley had a chartered plane waiting to fly the film to Washington. There is also the impossible drive made by Gimlin round trip Bluff Creek-Eureka-Bluff Creek. We trashed it all in the 411 PGF.

 

[JohnWS]

So either Patterson faked the entire film and everything, or he filmed a real bigfoot and then faked the footprints....which seems more likely to reasonable people?

That's what I thought you intended it to mean.

 

[JcR]

I figure that this N.G. copy of P.G.F. has been edited.
Maybe a bodge job somewhere along the line.
This frame (which I took a snap of) from the beginning sequence, right after the driftwood.
Has an exact duplicate frame... that is again seen later.
Again the same sequence driftwood then this frame.
Doesn't really prove a thing I guess.
I have no problem believing their edit job was a bit careless.
Again sorry if this picture is not too spectacular or if you have
seen it before. ( ya BF is a great blob here but it still has an exact duplicate).
Still a good question I think. I may have better copies
lost in my hard drives somewhere.

 

[rockinkt]

Actually, the CR isnt where I'm getting that from, its the actual ( as of yet to be field verified) court orders.

I'm not saying no money at all ( defined as $0.00) but the evidence suggests very little.

I'm not taking any type of "woo" opinion and I'm fully aware that BG could be telling the truth about making no money yet still be lying about everything else.

I'm simply going by what I have in the way of factual official documentation that can be verified as legitimate.

BG made the claim in suit ( and swore to under oath under penalty of perjury and contempt) that he didnt get his share of the BFE "monies"- in the yet to be validated orders i have

The defendants ( PP and DeAtely) not only did NOT contest his claim but agreed to give him additional ownership interest ( contingent of a hold harmless agreement for monies NOT paid to him and an order that they would never have to account for monies not paid to him)

The only way I can read that is a concession that they did in fact screw him out of money.

Then he sold out to RD

He might have made some, but not much

Just throwing out some ideas LT...you know the drill.
How does this dog hunt?

There is no way that Patterson and DeAtley would dispute Gimlin's claims because that would have opened a can of worms that would probably have brought the whole house of cards tumbling down.

Gimlin wanted money - there is no doubting that fact given that he took them to court.

I would strongly suggest that there were talks before the court filings.
Probably a - "I dare you"..."No, I dare YOU" - type of thing because everybody involved knew that a court order requiring Patterson and DeAtley to provide ALL the $ in and $ out evidence would be a death blow.

Why? Because all the details surrounding the agreement before the filming would have to be brought forward - and then all the details AFTER the filming would have to be brought forward. (Even if stipulated to by Gimlin).
There would have to be a timeline and expenses entered into the record for the film being developed and the copies made. Since that would be a public record - it would be very easy to verify or prove false.
That would have ended it right there as there is no believable story that any of these fraudsters have ever come up with that can satisfy the timelines.

So, since Patterson and DeAtley did not want to pay Gimlin the $ owing to him - and they thought Gimlin would not take the chance of going to court and busting things wide open - they were no doubt taken by surprise and had to stipulate to everything Gimlin said or be forced to PROVE the opposite.
There is no way they could have brought some of the earnings forward for IRS reasons AND the fear that the judge just might order ALL the available accounting be brought forward along with a timeline. (Based on my experiences in court giving evidence for plaintiffs - not an unreasonable order to anticipate).

Since the party involved in the film developing would have had to been named if there were no receipts - they were busted as soon as that person gave evidence. Since they would have had to provide evidence of expenses for the private plane – that story gets busted. Post office records for costs and dates would be available to the court - busted again.

Nope - Gimlin called their bluff and they stipulated to everything.
No argument - no nothing. Whatever Gimlim said was just fine.

That they would stipulate to whatever Gimlin said in court where there was danger of the hoax being discovered showed that they feared the court – not that they thought that Gimlin was right – or they just would have agreed to pay Gimlin the $$$ without going to court.

In my mind – that is proof that Patterson and DeAtley had something far more valuable than whatever amount of $$$ they owed Gimlin to protect.

Since Gimlin wanted $$$ and took them to court – I would strongly suggest that Gimlin called their bluff and rather than have the whole house of cards come tumbling down – they made a backroom deal that saw Gimlin get paid what he wanted with the agreement he get out of the picture in the near future(no doubt using some of that cash $ lying around after all the shows) in order to protect Patterson and DeAtley from further predicaments.

When Dahinden got the rights – it was for only the time he got the rights forward – therefore nothing to worry about for anybody involved in the hoax.

Gimlin got his piece of the money.
Patterson and DeAtley got peace of mind.

 

[Correa Neto]

I'm not taking any type of "woo" opinion and I'm fully aware that BG could be telling the truth about making no money yet still be lying about everything else.

LT, I`m not saying you are taking woo stances. I`m just saying that certain footers may (May? Better say will) use whatever evidence you find in some... How could I write... Way where critical thinking is lacking.

Oh, yep, it seems BG`s window of opportunity lasted less than 10 years after the shooting.

Legal issues apart, considering only the timing, the window would last only while interest on bigfoot is at the peak.

 

[GT/CS]

Just throwing out some ideas LT...you know the drill.
How does this dog hunt?

There is no way that Patterson and DeAtley would dispute Gimlin's claims because that would have opened a can of worms that would probably have brought the whole house of cards tumbling down.

Gimlin wanted money - there is no doubting that fact given that he took them to court.

I would strongly suggest that there were talks before the court filings.
Probably a - "I dare you"..."No, I dare YOU" - type of thing because everybody involved knew that a court order requiring Patterson and DeAtley to provide ALL the $ in and $ out evidence would be a death blow.

Why? Because all the details surrounding the agreement before the filming would have to be brought forward - and then all the details AFTER the filming would have to be brought forward. (Even if stipulated to by Gimlin).
There would have to be a timeline and expenses entered into the record for the film being developed and the copies made. Since that would be a public record - it would be very easy to verify or prove false.
That would have ended it right there as there is no believable story that any of these fraudsters have ever come up with that can satisfy the timelines.

So, since Patterson and DeAtley did not want to pay Gimlin the $ owing to him - and they thought Gimlin would not take the chance of going to court and busting things wide open - they were no doubt taken by surprise and had to stipulate to everything Gimlin said or be forced to PROVE the opposite.
There is no way they could have brought some of the earnings forward for IRS reasons AND the fear that the judge just might order ALL the available accounting be brought forward along with a timeline. (Based on my experiences in court giving evidence for plaintiffs - not an unreasonable order to anticipate).

Since the party involved in the film developing would have had to been named if there were no receipts - they were busted as soon as that person gave evidence. Since they would have had to provide evidence of expenses for the private plane – that story gets busted. Post office records for costs and dates would be available to the court - busted again.

Nope - Gimlin called their bluff and they stipulated to everything.
No argument - no nothing. Whatever Gimlim said was just fine.

That they would stipulate to whatever Gimlin said in court where there was danger of the hoax being discovered showed that they feared the court – not that they thought that Gimlin was right – or they just would have agreed to pay Gimlin the $$$ without going to court.

In my mind – that is proof that Patterson and DeAtley had something far more valuable than whatever amount of $$$ they owed Gimlin to protect.

Since Gimlin wanted $$$ and took them to court – I would strongly suggest that Gimlin called their bluff and rather than have the whole house of cards come tumbling down – they made a backroom deal that saw Gimlin get paid what he wanted with the agreement he get out of the picture in the near future(no doubt using some of that cash $ lying around after all the shows) in order to protect Patterson and DeAtley from further predicaments.

When Dahinden got the rights – it was for only the time he got the rights forward – therefore nothing to worry about for anybody involved in the hoax.

Gimlin got his piece of the money.
Patterson and DeAtley got peace of mind.

Wow, very impressive!!!

 

[LONGTABBER PE]

Just throwing out some ideas LT...you know the drill.
How does this dog hunt?

There is no way that Patterson and DeAtley would dispute Gimlin's claims because that would have opened a can of worms that would probably have brought the whole house of cards tumbling down.

Gimlin wanted money - there is no doubting that fact given that he took them to court.

I would strongly suggest that there were talks before the court filings.
Probably a - "I dare you"..."No, I dare YOU" - type of thing because everybody involved knew that a court order requiring Patterson and DeAtley to provide ALL the $ in and $ out evidence would be a death blow.

Why? Because all the details surrounding the agreement before the filming would have to be brought forward - and then all the details AFTER the filming would have to be brought forward. (Even if stipulated to by Gimlin).
There would have to be a timeline and expenses entered into the record for the film being developed and the copies made. Since that would be a public record - it would be very easy to verify or prove false.
That would have ended it right there as there is no believable story that any of these fraudsters have ever come up with that can satisfy the timelines.

So, since Patterson and DeAtley did not want to pay Gimlin the $ owing to him - and they thought Gimlin would not take the chance of going to court and busting things wide open - they were no doubt taken by surprise and had to stipulate to everything Gimlin said or be forced to PROVE the opposite.
There is no way they could have brought some of the earnings forward for IRS reasons AND the fear that the judge just might order ALL the available accounting be brought forward along with a timeline. (Based on my experiences in court giving evidence for plaintiffs - not an unreasonable order to anticipate).

Since the party involved in the film developing would have had to been named if there were no receipts - they were busted as soon as that person gave evidence. Since they would have had to provide evidence of expenses for the private plane – that story gets busted. Post office records for costs and dates would be available to the court - busted again.

Nope - Gimlin called their bluff and they stipulated to everything.
No argument - no nothing. Whatever Gimlim said was just fine.

That they would stipulate to whatever Gimlin said in court where there was danger of the hoax being discovered showed that they feared the court – not that they thought that Gimlin was right – or they just would have agreed to pay Gimlin the $$$ without going to court.

In my mind – that is proof that Patterson and DeAtley had something far more valuable than whatever amount of $$$ they owed Gimlin to protect.

Since Gimlin wanted $$$ and took them to court – I would strongly suggest that Gimlin called their bluff and rather than have the whole house of cards come tumbling down – they made a backroom deal that saw Gimlin get paid what he wanted with the agreement he get out of the picture in the near future(no doubt using some of that cash $ lying around after all the shows) in order to protect Patterson and DeAtley from further predicaments.

When Dahinden got the rights – it was for only the time he got the rights forward – therefore nothing to worry about for anybody involved in the hoax.

Gimlin got his piece of the money.
Patterson and DeAtley got peace of mind.

You're right Rock and as a peer, you know I respect your opinions very highly so here goes

>>>There is no way that Patterson and DeAtley would dispute Gimlin's claims because that would have opened a can of worms that would probably have brought the whole house of cards tumbling down.

In this instance they didnt have to because at the time of the suit, RP was dead and altho on the suit, DeAtely had already given his interest to PP. Depends on what you mean by bringing the house down because the order and items entered into evidence pretty much did that. ( depending on what you meant)

>>>Gimlin wanted money - there is no doubting that fact given that he took them to court.

I dont disagree for at all but heres where the documentation and the motivation dont match. ( thats why I'm digging a bit deeper because "you" know what that usually means LOL) Money was the sole reason ( stated so in the pleadings) and just from reading the orders, its clear that BG had a STRONG case and would have beaten them flat out if they challenged him. Yet he agreed for a non cash settlement for additional usage rights and ownership interest?

There is the account that RD was bankrolling this suit and somewhat "motivated" BG to sue. ( that might explain this settlement because RD clearly wanted the film/proceeds) I just dont have any paperwork to support that claim as of yet.

>>>I would strongly suggest that there were talks before the court filings.

If not before, during- I totally agree

>>>Why? Because all the details surrounding the agreement before the filming would have to be brought forward

Maybe under Canadian law but not under US Law. First, if they did hoax a film ( which I believe they did) and pass it off as true, its NOT a crime ( its common to fictionalize a real event and market as a "true story") The thing that "proved" the case was the business agreement with RP and DeAtely. ( the business charter drawn up by that lawyer) and several contracts signed by RP and DeAtely ( leasing/selling film rights) that listed BG. The court wouldnt have needed to or wasted its time digging deep into "who did what" when one party enters a business contract ( signed, publically filed as a business charter, notarized and such)

I dont know how many civil cases you did ( ie lawsuits without crimes) but when BG walked in with that agreement, the "case" was over at that point. ( at that point, its a matter of accounting for funds) What I dont understand ( having been involved with some 100+ civil actions) is why PP and DeAtely didnt settle and avoid court. They HAD to know BG had this documentation and their lawyer HAD to tell them that that lone document "slam dunked" them. ( maybe PP didnt because she wasnt a signatory but DeAtely was present when it was drafted and signed)

I know "I" would NEVER walk into a court in a "breach of contract' action ( which this was) when i was knowingly facing MY OWN CONTRACT that I signed and knowing I was in direct violation of it and risk not only the judges wrath but additional punitive sanctions.

>>>they were no doubt taken by surprise and had to stipulate to everything Gimlin said or be forced to PROVE the opposite.

And to the rest of that paragraph, I completely agree. The only answer that makes sense is they didnt think BG could "prove" his case and when he did, it put them in the "bow and scrape" mode. The settlement is clear to me that BG had "superior firepower" and was in the Captain's chair drafting the settlement. Its also clear that what PP and DeAtely mainly wanted was that "hold harmless" agreement for past accounting and release from future accounting to BG. ( which is written in the order as well)

>>>Since the party involved in the film developing would have had to been named if there were no receipts - they were busted as soon as that person gave evidence. Since they would have had to provide evidence of expenses for the private plane – that story gets busted. Post office records for costs and dates would be available to the court - busted again.

Not in this action. I thought this strange at first ( one of the reasons I have 2 lawyers reading it with me already) BG did NOT request, challenge or even address "ownership" of the PGF as a film. The court found inter alia in its order that RP "owned" the film from day one and that PP had SOLE ownership of the film ( defined as warranty of title). This is stated TWICE in the order. The only way the court would have heard such non relevant ( to the claims in the pleading) testimony and ruled would have been had BG sued for OWNERSHIP of the film. ( which he did NOT)

This suit was clearly and only about unpaid monies from the showing of the films ( from the plaintiff's pleadings) and as such, the court would only hear evidence surrounding the complaint. ( I could hear an "objection" on the grounds of relevancy immediately being sustained)

>>>In my mind – that is proof that Patterson and DeAtley had something far more valuable than whatever amount of $$$ they owed Gimlin to protect.


I kinda agree with that but thats a topic for email. ( part of my theory I'm developing)

>>>When Dahinden got the rights – it was for only the time he got the rights forward – therefore nothing to worry about for anybody involved in the hoax.

Thats another story ( havent gotten that far yet)

 

[WildBackdunesMan]

Besides Patterson Bigfoot tracks being too deep as pointed out in another article above, John Napier, an anatomist and anthropologist who served as the Smithsonian Institution's director of primate biology says about the Patterson film: "there is little doubt that the scientific evidence taken collectively points to a hoax of some kind."

Some of the uncommon points that Napier makes::

1) The stride length doesn't match and shows that Patterson faked the tracks. Patterson filmed not just Patty the bigfoot walking, but later he also filmed those very same tracks of Patty where she walked. The stride lengths do not match up, not even that close.

2) Patty shows a human center of gravity.

3) The walk and size is in fact consistent with a human.


So what we have here are tracks that clearly do not match up to the creature filmed. The stride length is off and the tracks are too deep. What reasonable alternative can believers come up with besides the concept that Patterson faked everything?

 

[LONGTABBER PE]

LT, I`m not saying you are taking woo stances. I`m just saying that certain footers may (May? Better say will) use whatever evidence you find in some... How could I write... Way where critical thinking is lacking.

Oh, yep, it seems BG`s window of opportunity lasted less than 10 years after the shooting.

Legal issues apart, considering only the timing, the window would last only while interest on bigfoot is at the peak.

>>>I`m just saying that certain footers may (May? Better say will) use whatever evidence you find in some... How could I write... Way where critical thinking is lacking.

we call that a calculated risk LOL. One thing tho, all I'm digging into is factual documentation. Its often impossible to establish "motive" and "intent" so I generally dont even try. ( its nice, but never necessary for conviction)

>>>Oh, yep, it seems BG`s window of opportunity lasted less than 10 years after the shooting.

I'm not being cryptic just very "word specific" here. ( for a reason, I'm waiting on verification) The above IS what this order shows ( I cant dispute that), however I'm not fully convinced thats factually the case ( yet)

( the biggest reason [ but not the one I'm sitting on] is the language of the order is so "weak" it could be interpreted several different ways and is vague and non descript in clarity. Then theres the question of viability of the order in regard to future sales as well as survivorship)

 

[William Parcher]

From Meldrum...

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Gigantofooticus over at BFF has argued that those measurements are not reliable.

 

[GT/CS]

Isn't it a little odd that the stride is only roughly double the foot length?

 

[LONGTABBER PE]

Gigantofooticus over at BFF has argued that those measurements are not reliable.

I find that funny. The simple fact is that ALL those measurements surrounding the PGF are unreliable.

I have noticed tho that measurements that seem to place Patty outside the realm of human seem to be "less" unreliable ( and thus more reliable) than those that dont.

It would seem to me that those who went to the site immediately after the filming would have pulled tapes from RP's boot prints ( or horse prints) to the alleged film subjects prints. Thats just one of many probems with the entire scene.

 

[William Parcher]

Gigantofooticus over at BFF has argued that those measurements are not reliable.

That graphic came from Meldrum's new scientific paper. Gfootecus is saying there are problems with it. The NASI scientific paper has problems too. How unfortunate. On the one hand, Bigfooters wish that science would pay attention to the PGF. But when science does pay attention, it makes errors in the analysis.