Israeli blockade 'forces Palestinians to search rubbish dumps for food'

[Darth Rotor]

But Haaretz reports that Israel's Deputy Defense Minister Matan Vilnai suggested that "Israel might relinquish all responsibility for the troubled Gaza Strip". This is an admission that Israel had some responsibilty for the Gaza strip. There is no other rational inference. That is not confirmation bias -- it is simple confirmation.

You will note above that I don't disagree with the airspace issue -- it's the size of one tenth of the county around Houston, for fox ache, let's be practical here -- and the tax issue remains outstanding. Please note what has interrupted the transition.

Egypt dodged the hot potato. So Israel still has responsibility for the Gaza strip.

No, your careless use of "responsibilty for" is dishonest. That usage implies a responsibility for the whole bag of donoughts. See 1988. That would be correct then, it isn't now.

Once again, you know the history, that Israel turned over partial control and responsibility, in 1994, turned over far more administrative control and hence responsibility in 2005, and guess what: you won't admit any limitation to this in your harangue. Therefore Israel has responsibility for is incorrect.

You fail to modify the term responsibility. The word you seek is limited, and I'd suggest "very limited" with the remaining, the bulk, being the responsibility of the PA/Hamas to whom Israel ceded said control and attendant responsibility. The government of by and for the Palestinians, be they PA, Hamas, or both, are on the hook, or you are damning them as a complete charade and a farce: why do you so disrespect the Palestinian voter, FireGarden? I thought you supported them.

So, Israel's obligations are imited to --- you can read as well as I do.

Will you? Or will you keep playing this game? Pedantic semantic uselessness for fifty, Alex, so long as it serves an agenda.

The Pals have been somewhat empowerd by the last twenty years of political struggle. Some of that struggle has been bitter, and bloody. It ain't over yet, but, news flash, Fire

It isn't 1968 anymore.

It isn't 1988 anymore either

The occupying power is gone to be replaced by another one, as of 2007 it is called Hamas. They won the little civil war for a scrap of land smaller than the county I live in. They can work with the Israelis. They choose not to. Their choice. Remember, the US and Soviets worked together, even though we didn't like one another all that much. It can be done.

Does it occur to you, as it does to me, that the governmental spokesman is voicing the concern that Israel holds up its end of the bargain, the deals made in both 1994 and 2005, to ensure they have clean hands? They can't do that with an insecure border. He also points out (to Egyptian critics) that they are welcomed to do better.

Egypt folds. (I don't blame them.)

Both became national heroes behind prison bars. Both were convicted of terrorism. Both supported violent struggle. Mandela supported the 1961 decision of the African National Congress to start an armed struggle against the racist government (but not against white civilians).

Can the alleged Palestinian Mandella say the same? If so, that is great. Is anyone listening other than Westerners? Hamas sure as hell isn't.

DR

 

[gdnp]

No, Skeptic, not overwhelmingly. 47% to 44% over Fatah, IIRC. A reasonably close election among the two largest factions/parties in Gaza. The other dogs and cats got the kibbles and bits votes smaller parties usually get.

Hmm. Sounds like the block voting system that they used was designed to allow a group that receives a plurality of the vote to maintain a majority of the seats. This would have served Fatah well as long as they were the largest faction, but caused a huge loss of power with a relatively small shift in votes.

BirdStrike, are you willing to accept Darth Rotor's figures that Hamas won only a minority (47%) of the vote, and not the overwhelming 2/3 majority that you have claimed, or do you have more authoritative figures?

 

[Darth Rotor]

Hmm. Sounds like the block voting system that they used was designed to allow a group that receives a plurality of the vote to maintain a majority of the seats. This would have served Fatah well as long as they were the largest faction, but caused a huge loss of power with a relatively small shift in votes.

BirdStrike, are you willing to accept Darth Rotor's figures that Hamas won only a minority (47%) of the vote, and not the overwhelming 2/3 majority that you have claimed, or do you have more authoritative figures?

I was told elsewhere that the figures were for all of the PA, which is West Bank and Gaza, whereas in Gaza it might have been a larger margin, so I admit I might have been sloppy there. Not sure, but if so, apologies for sloppines. If I can get a better breakdown, I'll try and give better resolution. However, this Gaza and WB issue highlights the political absurdity of the Pal situation, in terms of finally getting a cohesive territory that is their own, sovereign turf. See a similarly bizarre set up, East and West Pakistan, that came a cropper back in the early 1970's.

 

[gdnp]

The occupying power is gone to be replaced by another one, as of 2007 it is called Hamas. They won the little civil war for a scrap of land smaller than the county I live in. They can work with the Israelis. They choose not to. Their choice. Remember, the US and Soviets worked together, even though we didn't like one another all that much. It can be done.

I agree with your opinion that responsibility over Gaza is shared, but disagree with how you divide that responsibility.

The state of New Jersey runs prisons. If they were to decide to turn over control of the operation of the prison to a private company, who would act as guards, meet out punishments, serve the food, decide on the recreation schedule and lock-downs, etc. then the private company would become responsible for those activities and any abuses that they performed: stealing the food, beating the prisoners, failing to maintain security, etc.

The state, however, would still maintain ultimate responsibility for the prison as long as they control who comes in and out and whether enough food comes in. If the prisoners riot because New Jersey only allows in half the necessary food and the management company steals part of it to feed there own staff, with whom should we place the bulk of the blame?

Obviously, the parallel is not exact. We do not allow prisons to elect their own guards. At least not in the US. But my main point stands: he who controls the borders of Gaza--what people can enter or leave, what food, fuel, medicine, and supplies can come in, what exports can come out--is ultimately responsible for the welfare of the civilian population. Right now that is Israel. They are the occupying power regardless of whether they currently have troops on the ground there, and will continue to be so until they open Gaza's borders or turn over control to some other entity.

 

[DC]

I was told elsewhere that the figures were for all of the PA, which is West Bank and Gaza, whereas in Gaza it might have been a larger margin, so I admit I might have been sloppy there. Not sure, but if so, apologies for sloppines. If I can get a better breakdown, I'll try and give better resolution. However, this Gaza and WB issue highlights the political absurdity of the Pal situation, in terms of finally getting a cohesive territory that is their own, sovereign turf. See a similarly bizarre set up, East and West Pakistan, that came a cropper back in the early 1970's.

here one can find all the details about the Elections in Palestine

http://www.elections.ps/template.aspx?id=52

 

[gdnp]

I was told elsewhere that the figures were for all of the PA, which is West Bank and Gaza, whereas in Gaza it might have been a larger margin, so I admit I might have been sloppy there. Not sure, but if so, apologies for sloppines. If I can get a better breakdown, I'll try and give better resolution.

Good luck. I spent over 2 hours trying to find the actual vote totals and came up blank. If it's out there on the internet it's pretty well hidden.

However, this Gaza and WB issue highlights the political absurdity of the Pal situation, in terms of finally getting a cohesive territory that is their own, sovereign turf. See a similarly bizarre set up, East and West Pakistan, that came a cropper back in the early 1970's.

I brought this up earlier, possibly in a different thread. The longer the two populations remain separated the more they will evolve in separate directions based on the local conditions. Eventually they will become separate species and we will be discussing the necessity of a 3 state solution rather than a 2 state solution.

Is there any other country that exists as 2 separate land masses separated by someone else's sovereign territory?

Maybe a bridge or a tunnel...

 

[gdnp]

here one can find all the details about the Elections in Palestine

http://www.elections.ps/template.aspx?id=52

This is the closest that I could find to results. If you can translate that into votes for Hamas or Fatah, I would like to know how. Is there information elsewhere on the site that I have missed?

 

[DC]

ther exact numbers should be here

http://www.elections.ps/template.aspx?id=52

Voters' List
1996 General Elections
2005 Presidential Elections
2006 PLC Elections
Local Elections
Number of International Observers
Statistics pertaining to the electoral process


http://www.elections.ps/pdf/Final_Results_PLC_Summary_Lists_Seats_2_En.pdf

it was

44.45% for Hamas
and
41.43% for Fatah
in total.

in Gaza it was
56.72% for Hamas
36.64% for Fatah

http://www.elections.ps/pdf/Lists_voters_per_districts_EN2.pdf

 

[Darth Rotor]

I agree with your opinion that responsibility over Gaza is shared, but disagree with how you divide that responsibility.

The state of New Jersey runs prisons. If they were to decide to turn over control of the operation of the prison to a private company, who would act as guards, meet out punishments, serve the food, decide on the recreation schedule and lock-downs, etc. then the private company would become responsible for those activities and any abuses that they performed: stealing the food, beating the prisoners, failing to maintain security, etc.

The state, however, would still maintain ultimate responsibility for the prison as long as they control who comes in and out and whether enough food comes in. If the prisoners riot because New Jersey only allows in half the necessary food and the management company steals part of it to feed there own staff, with whom should we place the bulk of the blame?

Obviously, the parallel is not exact. We do not allow prisons to elect their own guards. At least not in the US. But my main point stands: he who controls the borders of Gaza--what people can enter or leave, what food, fuel, medicine, and supplies can come in, what exports can come out--is ultimately responsible for the welfare of the civilian population. Right now that is Israel. They are the occupying power regardless of whether they currently have troops on the ground there, and will continue to be so until they open Gaza's borders or turn over control to some other entity.

There is some merit to that idea, but the whole issue resolves around two parties working under a previously agreed protocol.

Note: The control of the ports is no longer Israeli, but the restrictions on the ports, embargo/blockade, is. Or, I read the summary wrongly on that element of the ceding authority.

Again, who interrupted the transition? Who welched on the PA Israeli deal? I will offer to you the proximate causation as Palestinian, and specifically the Hamas political faction, for making a challenging situation worse deliberately. Even the Israeli liberals and other Israeli advocates for the Palestinians cannot rationally demand their government to uphold each element of a deal that requires a two sided effort to make work. The Pals of Gaza are in breach of contract, collectively, since their government has breached the contract. (Granted, you can fairly point the finger at the Israel side for its initial reaction to the election, in terms of pre-emption, but they did not initiate the breach in the cease fire. )

It takes two to tango. One partner is not stepping to the dance floor. That responsibility Hamas and Hamas alone must shoulder as the leader of its constituency. So far, not willing to make the deal work.

Gee, I wonder why you used a prison system as an analogy. Subtle? Not so much.

DR

 

[BirdStrike]

BirdStrike, are you willing to accept Darth Rotor's figures that Hamas won only a minority (47%) of the vote, and not the overwhelming 2/3 majority that you have claimed, or do you have more authoritative figures?

I have spent the past 24 hours Googling the numbers for the 2005 Gaza municipal elections. I can easily find the numbers for the 2006 Palestinian Presidential elections, the percentages often quoted here, but for the life of me I cannot find the actual breakdown for the 2005 Gaza municipal elections.

I have been doing this to give you that information. Guess what? I can't find them anywhere. If someone wishes to try to find the numbers for the 2005 Gaza municipal elections I would be willing to read them.

So I base my opinion on what I can find, and it is this, repeated by hundreds of news sources:

Initial results show the militant group Hamas has won an overwhelming victory in Palestinian local elections held Thursday in the Gaza Strip, winning nearly two-thirds of the local council seats in 10 districts.

The results reflect the widespread support Hamas has in Gaza, and are also seen as a potential turning point for the Islamic group.

Hamas Spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri called it a victory for the Palestinian people. Thousands of supporters took to the streets in Gaza on Friday, waving green Hamas flags, and hailing the election outcome.

voanews

So IMHO if Hamas wins 2/3rds of the popular vote in the 2005 Gaza municipal elections, and every Palestinian on Earth knows who and what Hamas stands for, I don't accept the "get out of jail free card" people are trying to hand Gazans who gave Hamas 2/3rds of the popular vote in the 2005 Gaza Municipal elections.

Fair enough?

 

[WildCat]

I agree with your opinion that responsibility over Gaza is shared, but disagree with how you divide that responsibility.

The state of New Jersey runs prisons. If they were to decide to turn over control of the operation of the prison to a private company, who would act as guards, meet out punishments, serve the food, decide on the recreation schedule and lock-downs, etc. then the private company would become responsible for those activities and any abuses that they performed: stealing the food, beating the prisoners, failing to maintain security, etc.

The state, however, would still maintain ultimate responsibility for the prison as long as they control who comes in and out and whether enough food comes in. If the prisoners riot because New Jersey only allows in half the necessary food and the management company steals part of it to feed there own staff, with whom should we place the bulk of the blame?

Obviously, the parallel is not exact. We do not allow prisons to elect their own guards. At least not in the US. But my main point stands: he who controls the borders of Gaza--what people can enter or leave, what food, fuel, medicine, and supplies can come in, what exports can come out--is ultimately responsible for the welfare of the civilian population. Right now that is Israel. They are the occupying power regardless of whether they currently have troops on the ground there, and will continue to be so until they open Gaza's borders or turn over control to some other entity.

Good luck. I spent over 2 hours trying to find the actual vote totals and came up blank. If it's out there on the internet it's pretty well hidden.


I brought this up earlier, possibly in a different thread. The longer the two populations remain separated the more they will evolve in separate directions based on the local conditions. Eventually they will become separate species and we will be discussing the necessity of a 3 state solution rather than a 2 state solution.

Is there any other country that exists as 2 separate land masses separated by someone else's sovereign territory?

Maybe a bridge or a tunnel...

This is the closest that I could find to results. If you can translate that into votes for Hamas or Fatah, I would like to know how. Is there information elsewhere on the site that I have missed?

OK, I've crunched the numbers and as it turns out Hamas got 48% of the vote in the Gaza strip as a whole, per this page: http://www.elections.ps/pdf/Lists_voters_per_districts_EN2.pdf

I think my error before was seeing a news article which stated that in Gaza over 56% of the vote went to Hamas, I didn't realize that Gaza was just one of 5 districts in the Gaza strip.

 

[DC]

ther exact numbers should be here

http://www.elections.ps/template.aspx?id=52

Voters' List
1996 General Elections
2005 Presidential Elections
2006 PLC Elections
Local Elections
Number of International Observers
Statistics pertaining to the electoral process


http://www.elections.ps/pdf/Final_Re...Seats_2_En.pdf

it was

44.45% for Hamas
and
41.43% for Fatah
in total.

in Gaza it was
56.72% for Hamas
36.64% for Fatah

http://www.elections.ps/pdf/Lists_vo...tricts_EN2.pdf

 

[BirdStrike]

ther exact numbers should be here

Are those numbers for the 2005 Gaza Municipal elections, or the 2006 Presidential elections. I dunno the the links are dead.

OK, I've crunched the numbers and as it turns out Hamas got 48% of the vote in the Gaza strip as a whole, per this page: http://www.elections.ps/pdf/Lists_voters_per_districts_EN2.pdf

I think my error before was seeing a news article which stated that in Gaza over 56% of the vote went to Hamas, I didn't realize that Gaza was just one of 5 districts in the Gaza strip.

DING! WRONG. Hamas won 2/3rds of the vote in the 2005 Gaza Municipal elections. You are making the same mistake as everyone and quoting numbers from the 2006 Presidential elections.

That is the mistake being repeated over and over again in this thread.

 

[Darth Rotor]

OK, I've crunched the numbers and as it turns out Hamas got 48% of the vote in the Gaza strip as a whole, per this page: http://www.elections.ps/pdf/Lists_voters_per_districts_EN2.pdf

I think my error before was seeing a news article which stated that in Gaza over 56% of the vote went to Hamas, I didn't realize that Gaza was just one of 5 provinces in the Gaza strip.

Ah, interesting.

Province? How about voting precinct?. If the five sub divisions of Gaza are provinces, then Victoria Texas is a nation at the UN. You could fit three Gaza Strips into Bexar County with room left over, FFS. "Province" my hairy arse. Ontario is a province. Gaza is a suburb of nowhere in particular, east. Don't get me started on effing Monaco and San Marino ...

 

[WildCat]

BTW, I note that the only political party in the PA not founded by terrorists, The National Coalition For Justice And Democracy, got a whopping 1,806 votes or 0.18% of the total. Worse than Libertarians in the US!

 

[Darth Rotor]

DING! WRONG. Hamas won 2/3rds of the vote in the 2005 Gaza Municipal elections. You are making the same mistake as everyone and quoting numbers from the 2006 Presidential elections.

That is the mistake being repeated over and over again in this thread.

Bird, don't the 2006 elections overtake the 2005 elections in importance?

The point you are trying to make is sorta like this:

since the Mayor of New York voted in in 2006 is a Republican, that somehow trumps the state election of a Democratic New York governor in 2008.

You've got me rather confused at what you are driving at.

 

[WildCat]

Ah, interesting.

Province? How about voting precinct?. If the five sub divisions of Gaza are provinces, then Victoria Texas is a nation at the UN. You could fit three Gaza Strips into Bexar County with room left over, FFS. "Province" my hairy arse. Ontario is a province. Gaza is a suburb of nowhere in particular, east. Don't get me started on effing Monaco and San Marino ...

Calm down Darth, I wrote "provinces" instead of "districts" and you quoted me before I edited it to make a correction.

Now, breathe into this paper bag for me...

 

[DC]

Are those numbers for the 2005 Gaza Municipal elections, or the 2006 Presidential elections. I dunno the the links are dead.





DING! WRONG. Hamas won 2/3rds of the vote in the 2005 Gaza Municipal elections. You are making the same mistake as everyone and quoting numbers from the 2006 Presidential elections.

That is the mistake being repeated over and over again in this thread.

those should be found here

http://www.elections.ps/template.aspx?id=351

 

[Darth Rotor]

Calm down Darth, I wrote "provinces" instead of "districts" and you quoted me before I edited it to make a correction.

Now, breathe into this paper bag for me...

Sorry, I blame the caffeine or the chili beef and egg taco I had for breakfast or something ...

My bad.

DR

 

[DC]

BTW, I note that the only political party in the PA not founded by terrorists, The National Coalition For Justice And Democracy, got a whopping 1,806 votes or 0.18% of the total. Worse than Libertarians in the US!

oh is this so?

what is the list of al parties? and theyr founders, where can i look that up?

what is your evidence that the PPP was founded by terrorists for example?