Hafrada is worse than Apartheid

[Texas]

What's your point?

But let's get back on track; this was about Hafrada, the segregation policy Israel institutes in the West Bank.

Once upon a time, there was a Jewish girl named Jasmine from Jerusalem, and an Arab boy named Osama from Ramallah. They met and fell in love. And they married (in Cyprus). Then they wanted to live together, as other married couples. Israeli law forbade Osama to enter Israel, so they couldn't live together at Jasmin's place. Conversely, Jasmine only got a temporary permit to enter Ramallah, the place where Osama lived.

In the end, they emigrated to Berlin, Germany.

Sources: here, here, here, here, here, and numerous other places.

First of all, there is absolutely NO Israeli segregation in the West Bank. There are only former Jordanians living on land lost by Jordan to Israel in the 6 day war. Israel is ready and willing to cede control to the former Jordanians when they are willing to grow the hell up. As to your Romeo and Juliet scenario, Osama from Ramallah and his Jewish bride wouldn't live 24 hours in the West Bank.

 

[a_unique_person]

I think you are a bit confused. The West Bank is only considered "disputed territories" since Israel actually came into control of it due to a war the Arab nations started and lost. Israel has repeatedly agreed to cede control of the West Bank as a part of the 2 state solution.

Not according to Olmert. He only recently stated that he had realised now that the dream of greater Israel is dead. Oslo was never accepted by many Israeli's.

 

[Texas]

Not according to Olmert. He only recently stated that he had realised now that the dream of greater Israel is dead. Oslo was never accepted by many Israeli's.

It was accepted by the Israeli government that is all that matters. Israel gave Arafat every thing he wanted and yet he still turned it down. Arafat and the Hamas leadership is just like any other race or poverty pimp. The last thing they want is to have their demands met since that would mean they would have to actually follow up their rhetoric with actions and without the "cause"they have no one to blame for failure.

 

[ddt]

First of all, there is absolutely NO Israeli segregation in the West Bank. There are only former Jordanians living on land lost by Jordan to Israel in the 6 day war. Israel is ready and willing to cede control to the former Jordanians when they are willing to grow the hell up. As to your Romeo and Juliet scenario, Osama from Ramallah and his Jewish bride wouldn't live 24 hours in the West Bank.

Your sophistry is well noted. The Jordanian claim on the West Bank has never been internationally recognized - only by Israel and the UK. In 1988, Jordan renounced its claims on the West Bank in favour of the PLO.

Furthermore, it's obvious you haven't read the links I gave. Osama and Jasmin did live in Ramallah for a couple of months, until she got tired of seeing her fellow countrymen, as soldiers, harass daily the Palestinians - see also this interview (in German).

 

[Texas]

Your sophistry is well noted. The Jordanian claim on the West Bank has never been internationally recognized - only by Israel and the UK. In 1988, Jordan renounced its claims on the West Bank in favour of the PLO.

Furthermore, it's obvious you haven't read the links I gave. Osama and Jasmin did live in Ramallah for a couple of months, until she got tired of seeing her fellow countrymen, as soldiers, harass daily the Palestinians - see also this interview (in German).

Yet Jordan granted full citizenship to the "Palestinians". As to renouncing its claim that came after the slaughter of 20,000 "palestinians" by Jordanian troops. See Black September. Your Romeo and Juliet of the WB is a nice story but if an Arab Girl can be stoned for having sex with an Arab boy then your story of the reasons for their departure rings hollow.

 

[ddt]

Yet Jordan granted full citizenship to the "Palestinians". As to renouncing its claim that came after the slaughter of 20,000 "palestinians" by Jordanian troops. See Black September. Your Romeo and Juliet of the WB is a nice story but if an Arab Girl can be stoned for having sex with an Arab boy then your story of the reasons for their departure rings hollow.

That's all a big non-sequitur. Your last comment is ludicrous. If Arab girls would be stoned for having sex with Arab boys, there would be no Arabs anymore.

ETA: you're obviously still ignoring the many links I gave about the story.

 

[Texas]

That's all a big non-sequitur. Your last comment is ludicrous. If Arab girls would be stoned for having sex with Arab boys, there would be no Arabs anymore.

ETA: you're obviously still ignoring the many links I gave about the story.

Really then why was the 13 year old hanged last month in Iran? I realize she was Persian but Pick any Arab country you like.

 

[ddt]

Really then why was the 13 year old hanged last month in Iran? I realize she was Persian but Pick any Arab country you like.

You invalidate your own argument with the Persian/Iranian thing. But what in the hell has this to do with two 25 year olds who are married?

 

[Texas]

That's all a big non-sequitur. Your last comment is ludicrous. If Arab girls would be stoned for having sex with Arab boys, there would be no Arabs anymore.

ETA: you're obviously still ignoring the many links I gave about the story.

There is only one way for an Arab girl to escape stoning and that is marriage to a Muslim man. Have you never heard of honor killings. Good lord man. You have given a case of a Muslim man marrying a Jewish woman. While Islam allows for the Jewish woman to marry a Muslim man she MUST renounce her Jewish faith and embrace Islam for the marriage to be sanctioned. There can be NO mixed marriage. On the other hand Islamic law strictly forbids the marriage of a Muslim woman to any non-Muslim man.

 

[Texas]

You invalidate your own argument with the Persian/Iranian thing. But what in the hell has this to do with two 25 year olds who are married?

Tell me, did she embrace Islam to avoid having a "Jewish" child?

 

[DC]

There is only one way for an Arab girl to escape stoning and that is marriage to a Muslim man. Have you never heard of honor killings. Good lord man. You have given a case of a Muslim man marrying a Jewish woman. While Islam allows for the Jewish woman to marry a Muslim man she MUST renounce her Jewish faith and embrace Islam for the marriage to be sanctioned. There can be NO mixed marriage. On the other hand Islamic law strictly forbids the marriage of a Muslim woman to any non-Muslim man.

There can be NO mixed marriage
?
LOL you are so clueless.

 

[Texas]

There can be NO mixed marriage
?
LOL you are so clueless.

Really I can provide the Islamic law if you like. If you have something to contradict that then please provide it.

 

[FireGarden]

I'm still amazed that a country that is on the one hand so forward thinking it allows adoption by gay couples, on the other hand still has no (secular) civil marriage. The existence of only religious marriages also hinders the integration of the Jewish and Arab communities.

(btw, how do Israeli atheists marry? Do they have to go abroad?)

There are mixed marriages in Israel. People mostly go to Cyprus. The topic was discussed in this thread:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124658

Syria, Lebanon and Jordan have similar rules. It seems strange to me. And it must stop some people who are too poor to travel from having their marriages recognised.

 

[DC]

Really I can provide the Islamic law if you like. If you have something to contradict that then please provide it.

you mean religious or civil marriage?

religious is indeed problematic. Both religions are very conservative in that regard.

 

[a_unique_person]

First of all, there is absolutely NO Israeli segregation in the West Bank. There are only former Jordanians living on land lost by Jordan to Israel in the 6 day war. Israel is ready and willing to cede control to the former Jordanians when they are willing to grow the hell up. As to your Romeo and Juliet scenario, Osama from Ramallah and his Jewish bride wouldn't live 24 hours in the West Bank.

On the morrow of the 1948 war, when some of us said that there exists a Palestinian people and that we must make peace with them, we were a tiny handful here and in the whole world. We were laughed at. There are no Palestinians, we were told. "There is no such thing as a Palestinian people!" Golda Meir was still asserting much later.
Is there anyone today who denies the existence of the Palestinian people? We argued that in order to achieve peace, a Palestinian state must come into being. They laughed at us: Why? There is Jordan. There is Egypt. There are 22 Arab states. That's enough! But today it is a worldwide consensus: two states for two peoples.
We said that we must talk with the enemy, and the enemy was then the PLO. Four cabinet ministers demanded that I should be put on trial for high treason when I met Yasser Arafat in Beirut during the siege. All four of them later met Arafat, and the state of Israel signed official treaties with the PLO.
True, the treaties were not implemented and did not lead to peace. But the mutual recognition between Israel and the PLO, between Israel and the Palestinian people, became a fact. That was a revolution, and it cannot be reversed.

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/i-dream-of-another-israel-20081229-76sc.html

 

[Texas]

you mean religious or civil marriage?

religious is indeed problematic. Both religions are very conservative in that regard.

There are NO non-religious Muslims. There may be Non-religious Arabs But that is a totally different subject. You can be Jewish and atheist but never Muslim and atheist

 

[Texas]

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/i-dream-of-another-israel-20081229-76sc.html

Nice article but so what? Hell Ramsey Clark is an American that held high office in the Carter administration and he defended Saddam Hussein at his trial. I'll tell you what you dig up a comparable article from a member of Hamas that has those same sentiments towards Israel we can have hope for a solution to the I/P disaster.

 

[ddt]

Your Romeo and Juliet of the WB is a nice story but if an Arab Girl can be stoned for having sex with an Arab boy then your story of the reasons for their departure rings hollow.

Really then why was the 13 year old hanged last month in Iran? I realize she was Persian but Pick any Arab country you like.

There is only one way for an Arab girl to escape stoning and that is marriage to a Muslim man. Have you never heard of honor killings. Good lord man. You have given a case of a Muslim man marrying a Jewish woman. While Islam allows for the Jewish woman to marry a Muslim man she MUST renounce her Jewish faith and embrace Islam for the marriage to be sanctioned. There can be NO mixed marriage. On the other hand Islamic law strictly forbids the marriage of a Muslim woman to any non-Muslim man.

There are NO non-religious Muslims. There may be Non-religious Arabs But that is a totally different subject. You can be Jewish and atheist but never Muslim and atheist

All boldings are mine. So have you at last decided whether you wanted to discuss Arabs, Iranians or Muslims? No, you don't have to answer. You've already made enough of a fool of yourself, and you've earned a place on my ignore list.

 

[Texas]

. You've already made enough of a fool of yourself, and you've earned a place on my ignore list.

See that wasn't hard at all.

 

[DC]

There are NO non-religious Muslims. There may be Non-religious Arabs But that is a totally different subject. You can be Jewish and atheist but never Muslim and atheist

you can be of Jewish religion and be an Atheist at the same time?
interesting.

could a muslim muslim marry a atheist woman?
i know a couple. he is a moslem, preaching 5 times a day, doing ramadan and the whole circus. she, she is an atheist and openly says she does not belive in any God. they are married and have 2 children.