So what really happened 2000 years ago?

[Breckmin]

Clarification

What if
a person refuses to take a winning lottery ticket based on the fact that
children have died of starvation in Africa?

Why not take the winning lottery ticket and go share it with them and
maybe change their eternal state as well?...
~Michael

The point is to share it with the living because you can not change what
has happened to the dead.

 

[slingblade]

What eternal state? I've seen no evidence of any state after death save that of decomposition.

At any rate, if I did win the lottery, I wouldn't refuse the ticket based on the condition of others, what sense does that make?

I'm not so sure I'd use it on anyone in Africa though. Or India, or Canada for that matter. I'm just being honest. I know plenty of people right here who need medical care, dental care, food, shelter, decent clothes, a hand up to enable themselves to do what they can for themselves.

I can't save the world. Like most, I'll start with my corner of it, and move out from there, if I win enough.

Perhaps you'd have more luck picking the few of the millions in Africa you'd save. I'm afraid I don't have that capacity.

 

[Breckmin]

Incredible Peace when you are secure with truth

I did all you suggest, or require, for many years. Now, humans are results-oriented: when we do a thing, we want results, meaning a change from the status-quo to something new, or different. I got no results. I got none of the results I was told I could expect. And when I said so, I was told I must have "done it wrong." God being perfect, the fault couldn't possibly lie with god, so it had to lie with me. I have been told the problem is that I expected god to perform. I only expected it because I was told he promised to perform. If that's not so, then why preach it?

What real sense does that make, logically? "You can expect good things from god, but if you actually go so far as to expect them, you won't get them." What??

None of the above is a valid reason to reject evidence. "God did not perform?" What did you expect Him to perform??? How many times have
I prayed and the answer was "no?"

There was always a good reason. I had to discover it.

In actuality, the simpler explanation is that I was beseeching nothing. Nothing is there to hear me, and it doesn't matter how much I believe, how fervent I get, or how faithful I feel I am, there is still nothing there to hear me.

The reason I do not believe that you really believe this is because you are
not indifferent. It is logical to be indifferent to "nothingness." If you care
or are hurt in some way, or disappointed then perhaps you did not get the
answer you "wanted." If I was talking about nothingness then it would not
make you uneasy.

The fact is, accountability makes us all uneasy.
~Michael

Logic would dictate that in a universe that the Infinite Creator owns, God
would set the standard for perfection, so they were right in telling you that
God was perfect.

 

[arthwollipot]

Something wrong here. I never wrote that!
cj x

You're right. Something did go wrong. I think Breckmin wrote that. My apologies.

 

[Breckmin]

Infinite Determining Will vs (=) human volition and choice or is inclusive of it

As I said, it's not a choice. It's our initial condition. One which, if we were created by god, would be presumably set by god.

What about all of the millions who actually "chose" God based on their faith
and love for God??? Were they not also in a condition which had a tendency
to rebel against God? Will you deny their existence?

You cannot argue that we have time on earth to make a decision one way or another.

What about those who "do?" It is called making a decision for "Christ."

That's like when triplets are born, one will be born first, one will be born second, and then the third one. After 2 minutes, the first one born will be expected to choose a career because he's been around the longest. And even that is a ridiculously simplistic analogy.

Well if you can't speak then you can't make the decision. Perhaps you just
made the case for why Christians believe that babies go to heaven.

We're not talking a few minutes vs. several decades. We're talking about a few decades vs eternity.

Yes, all decisions in the beginning affect eternity. That is still irrelevant
to actuality. Let's look at this logically for a second. Suppose there was
a point in so called "time" when God created. Now you could suppose this
took a few billion years or you could suppose only a few million or hundred
thousand. If you place a finite number over infinity the result is the same.
STILL, the creation took place and it was God's "choice" to Create. Now
you could argue that God's choice itself was not finite, and you would be correct,
because creation is cosmically an infinite choice which is made outside the
dimensions of time and space, BUT from a finite perspective any finite being
who creates something or makes something that exists, eternity does not
change history into nothingness. Or does it in some way? Now we are
approaching cosmic imputations.

What percentage is that? Say you live 80 years. 80/infinity = 0%. Whatever maturity we gain through the time we are here on earth is NOTHING compared to an eternity.

And yet those 80 years exists just as a choice that is made exists. Eternity
exists because time is linear. If matter is destroyed and recreated that does
not mean that the matter we now have never existed just because we approach infinity because we are eternal. The finite number that is above
the denominator still exists, even though infinity is a determiner which makes
the whole fraction equivalent to zero.

Say we were around for 10^80 years. That is still nothing compared to an eternity. It's like you said:

Rather than argue nothing is still something, I would appeal rather to any
point in time as being "something." A point in time when a decision is made,
or when something is caused into existence within a finite measurable amount
of duration or time (always relative of course)still exists, even though eternity
will go on and leave the event becoming infinitely small.
Just like infinite inner space. No matter how small something is, you can
always conceptually take a portion of it for all of eternity. That is the
beauty of knowing both inner space and outer space (infinite free space
not to be confused with quantum vacuum which is expanding into it and
is not empty space).

I've already explained this, so the question stands.

I am more than happy to answer the correct question, but you need to understand where this is ultimately headed. The real question we should be
asking within the closed set of assumptions of Christianity is "Why did God
create man in His Image if the end result would be the cost of billions of
people being separated from Him, and only millions being saved?"
This is the fundamental question I was expecting to answer. All other
questions are easily answered and ultimately lead to this question.
It comes down to a question of eternal "cost" within the soteriological
structure of Christianity and "why" did God proceed to give humankind
a "choice" that would lead to the existence of evil or disobedience and
the world/universe that we now live in.

I was going to give you a paradigm for infinite determinism and how
God first gave Adam a choice and left it open for all of eternity, the
same way in which it would have been for all finite created beings of
volition were Adam and Eve to have muliplied. Without absolute knowledge
of good and evil, Adam would have indeed at some point in "eternity"
made the wrong "choice." You can say that IF eternity or infinity is
the determiner, THEN Adam never had an absolute choice, but this is
evasive to the fact that the choice was still made from absolute volition
regardless of whether one of the circumstances was infinity. That is
why I asked the question "What is a choice?"

It is very important to understand the "circumstances" which surround
a choice and decision making.

I hope I have made you think a second time
~Michael

 

[slingblade]

None of the above is a valid reason to reject evidence. "God did not perform?" What did you expect Him to perform??? How many times have
I prayed and the answer was "no?"

Ah, yes. I did indeed predict this. Did I not?

I expected god to perform that which my elders showed me in the Bible god promised several times to perform. Is that not...logical to expect?

Look, you TOLD ME that if I followed your ritual steps and canted your cant, I could expect something from god, didn't you? I mean, why are you instructing me on the right way to ask god for something if I'm supposed to know in advance god doesn't grant what I've asked for? What's the bloody point?

You don't read the bible, I take it?

Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? ...sound familiar? There are more than a dozen, two dozen, of similar verses, words supposedly spoken by jesus. Many assurances that whatsoever ye ask of god in his name it will be done, will be given you, will be yours. Period. God wouldn't be so cruel as to ignore the heartfelt cries of his own children, would he?

I expected not one thing more of god than those things I was told over and over he promised to give. But he never gave.

Many, many folks just like you told me it was true. They told me for years. Funny, but never once did any non-human voice tell me these things. Just that book, and those people. No god in evidence then, and none decades later when I finally realized I'd been thoroughly had.

There was always a good reason. I had to discover it.

Oh yes, I quite agree.

I discovered he's a fiction. Pretty good reason, I'd say. Rather the best.

The reason I do not believe that you really believe this is because you are
not indifferent.

Your belief matters not one bit to me. It changes nothing for me and why should it? Don't believe me, but just like that sweater I spoke of earlier, the damned thing is yours, and your refusal to believe me won't change that.

I've been hurt. I've been badly abused, and I will pay the price for the actions of others against me for the rest of my life. So must we all.

It is logical to be indifferent to "nothingness."

Quite. I am indifferent to the idea of gods.


What I am not indiffernt to is those very real humans who want to use that idea to control, dominate, dictate to, and oppress others. Them, I hate. Them, I cannot and will not be indifferent to.

If you care
or are hurt in some way, or disappointed then perhaps you did not get the
answer you "wanted."

I couldn't get the answer I "wanted" because there was nothing there to answer me. Logically impossible.

If I was talking about nothingness then it would not
make you uneasy.

Uneasy? Honey, I am good old-fashioned pissed off! How do you feel when you're lied to? How do you feel when you're lied to for decades? How would it make you feel to be blamed for the magician's failure to produce the rabbit, when the magician himself has never seen the rabbit, but takes its existence on faith alone? And he's going to blame you when it doesn't show up? Come on.

The fact is, accountability makes us all uneasy.

It does? I've never had that sensation. I'm responsible now, and always have been, but I didn't know it for a long time, and that's the fault of the God-Pushers. I fixed it though. I became sober on reason, instead of drunk on emotion.

Logic would dictate that in a universe that the Infinite Creator owns, God
would set the standard for perfection, so they were right in telling you that
God was perfect.

ONCE MORE: logic would dictate you first prove such an entity exists, before you go around ascribing it traits you can't possibly know.

However, if your entity did exist, it showed time and time again that it wouldn't keep its promises, and so cannot be perfect.


Oh, and though you didn't ask, I'll inform you that one of the things I prayed about was what to do with my christian husband who hit me, humiliated me, dominated me, controlled me, cheated on me every day of the week by his own admission, and even went so far as to hit me in the head with the bible, screaming at me to SUBMIT to him. Then, of course, we'd go to church, where he'd be praised for being such a fine, righteous, upstanding man, while I hid my bruises.

Silly me, expecting a god to want to help with that. Of course the answer was always "no." The Old Boys club, etheral or mortal, always sticks together, hein?

 

[bokonon]

RNA/DNA DO prove to us that there is an INFORMATION giver, or a programmer to the code. A good example is gene regulation in E.coli discovered by Jacques Monod. In lac operon IF lactose is present and IF glucose is absent, THEN beta-galactosidase and permease. The two part control mechanism makes certain that B-galactosidase, galactose permease and transacetylase are only produced when needed.

And yet, there are e. coli which produce beta-galactosidase and permease all the time, even when there is no lactose to digest.

Fascinating algorithm. As we learn more about the code and the way in which it works we will find more characteristics of programming which will continue to point to intelligence.

The fact that some e. coli produce lactose-digesting enzymes when there is no lactose to digest demonstrates that if intelligence is involved, it is unreliable and inconsistent. Perhaps the renegade e. coli are descendants of a rogue pair of a. and e. coli, which ingested some forbidden molecule in an ancient perfect petri dish, and were flushed away in shame, a failed experiment, now awaiting the redemptive return of a messianic slime mold.

Or maybe the programming of DNA and RNA are the result of tiny random variations testing themselves in diverse environments, and failing to thrive more often than not, but surviving often enough to keep pushing the envelope into the future.

 

[bokonon]

None of the above is a valid reason to reject evidence. "God did not perform?" What did you expect Him to perform??? How many times have I prayed and the answer was "no?"

All of them.

There was always a good reason. I had to discover it.

Prayer = talking to yourself. Hope that helps.

Logic would dictate that in a universe that the Infinite Creator owns, God would set the standard for perfection, so they were right in telling you that God was perfect.

The universe is demonstrably imperfect.

 

[bokonon]

Well if you can't speak then you can't make the decision. Perhaps you just made the case for why Christians believe that babies go to heaven.

And e. coli.

 

[HghrSymmetry]

Yes, it has been repeated many times, but so has the same tired old bronze age mythology now rearing its ugly head on this thread.

 

[Breckmin]

I'm sorry Slingblade, but your objection to God should not be made on the
actions of men (only Jesus who IS God in the flesh). You can not expect God
to take away volition, even from evil men.

How then could God judge actions?

I'm sorry you have been a victim of evil, but so have I as a child. I learned to blame
the real culprits. These were enemies of God that I did not realize even existed.

~Michael

 

[Breckmin]

A temporary universe to deal with the real problem of evil, the problem for us

The universe is demonstrably imperfect.

It is a temporary creation. No one I know would disagree with this.

~Michael

 

[arthwollipot]

It is a temporary creation. No one I know would disagree with this.

Okay, the universe is something that God just chucked together quickly, with little attention to detail. Got it.

 

[bokonon]

It is a temporary creation. No one I know would disagree with this.

Fortunately, we got enough function with the beta that the fact that there's no funding for development of the production release isn't the tragedy it might have been.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

Temporary creation.

Let me see if I understand this correctly. This being made the universe, with its eventual demise in mind, collects the souls of humans, imperfect, short-lied humans, dispenses them to eternal punishment or paradise for the virtues or failings he put in them, and this being deserves to be worshipped. .. why precisely?

Where do you people come up with this stuff?

 

[Breckmin]

I couldn't quote this for some reason:

bokonon<<Or maybe the programming of DNA and RNA are the result of tiny random variations testing themselves in diverse environments, and failing to thrive more often than not, but surviving often enough to keep pushing the envelope into the future.>>

You give a strawman and present it as absurd before you give this. In an attempt to
make this presentation sound reasonable you still do not understand how equally
absurd "testing themselves" is because of faulty assumptions regarding information entropy
and Darwinian (evolutionary) mechanisms that don't exist.

The reality is that IF there is a Creator, and there are reasonable explanations for your
objections, THEN it doesn't really matter how good or ridiculous the presentation is,

all that matters is the end result.

You.

Question everything. Questioning naturalistic or materialistic interpretations and
how they are circular assumptions just might lead you in the "right" direction....

~Michael

 

[slingblade]

I'm sorry Slingblade, but your objection to God should not be made on the
actions of men (only Jesus who IS God in the flesh). You can not expect God
to take away volition, even from evil men.

I don't expect that, you're right.

There is no god. Logically impossible, as I've said.

How then could God judge actions?

Why, he can't, of course. He doesn't exist.


Tell me though, since you fell for it, how do you explain the promises made but unkept? What, your god not bright enough to know his own limitations? In the habit of making promises he knows he's constrained from keeping?

Evil, mendacious god you worship. I wonder why it appeals to you? Might you be too afraid not to believe?

I'm sorry you have been a victim of evil, but so have I as a child. I learned to blame
the real culprits. These were enemies of God that I did not realize even existed.

I learned to blame the real culprits, too. Haven't you been paying attention?


YOU are the culprit, my poor, deluded, frightened friend. I do feel for you, truly, I do. In bondage to a mere idea when you could be a free man with a free mind. And more, willing to foist it off onto others, so that you can feel secure in the delusion. Appeal to popularity, I believe. I did warn you about the fallacies, you'll recall, but I see you can't take well-meant advice, either.

Shame, really.

 

[bokonon]

In lac operon IF lactose is present and IF glucose is absent, THEN beta-galactosidase and permease. The two part control mechanism makes certain that B-galactosidase, galactose permease and transacetylase are only produced when needed.

In true believer IF belief is present and IF critical thinking is absent, THEN only information which confirms belief will be considered. The two part control mechanism makes certain that facts which contradict cherished beliefs will be dismissed before being processed.

 

[Breckmin]

strawman presentation of the temporary first creation

Temporary creation.

Let me see if I understand this correctly. This being made the universe, with its eventual demise in mind, collects the souls of humans, imperfect, short-lied humans, dispenses them to eternal punishment or paradise for the virtues or failings he put in them, and this being deserves to be worshipped. .. why precisely?

Clearly you do not <<understand this correctly>>. This Infinite and Loving
Personal Existence beyond the dimensions of time and space knew that
choice would result in the bi product of evil and created a universe which
would eventually need to be recreated into an eternal everlasting one with
different properties AFTER the problem of evil had been dealt with, which
HE and HE alone would deal with for us by becoming a Man and paying the
penalty for such evil and disobedience, and those who logically TRUST in
Him would receive the pardon of participating in such disobedience which
is the result of the real problem of evil which He knew was inevitable for
them, in order that He might show His lovingkindness to them.

This Great and Glorious Father and Eternal God deserves to be "thanked"
for paying the price for us and adopting us into His eternal family. Christians
thank Him regularly for providing a pathway to redemption. They thank Him
for providing payment for the inevitable evil which would inflict them like
a virus or disease inflicts so many. When you are healed from the bondage
of evil, you are indeed thankful.

God does not need our worship. We need to worship God to be completed
to our logical role in creation as creatures. Even what I have written above
is not presented perfectly in the English language. But at least I gave a
sloppy attempt to communicate a logical truth that is dynamically equivalent
in any imperfect human language. It all comes down to the Love of God, and
God dealing with the problem of evil for "us" if we are willing to trust Him.

Where do you people come up with this stuff?

Misunderstanding about what is really taking place in this universe with humankind and God's relationship to them.
You see "virtues and failing" are evasive to "faith" and trusting. You also
left out the most important part.

God's Love.
~Michael

 

[Breckmin]

It shows character...I'd say I liked it if this was just polemics

In true believer IF belief is present and IF critical thinking is absent, THEN only information which confirms belief will be considered. The two part control mechanism makes certain that facts which contradict cherished beliefs will be dismissed before being processed.

Like I said earlier. For me personally, this is not about whether God exists, I already know God is factual because of a miracle of communication in 1986. There is no possible way for me not to be saddened at the rejection of truth
that will result in eternal consequences for those who do not know any better, but SHOULD at least know that there is indeed a Creator.

You may be clever with polemics, but to not know God is to be left with
true nothingness. When the sun burns out this world will disappear.

You, however, will still be accountable. Everything in life should have
taught you by now that there are consequences for your actions.

You never truly get away with anything...

you just postpone your reckoning and fool yourself into believing all is well.

Where there are sound assumptions based on deduction and observation,
there are fundamental realities on which to build an understanding of truth.

You must ultimately choose between worshipping materialistic matter

OR worship the One Who made the materialistic matter. He is the fundamental reality you are accountable to. Not me.

~Michael