Easter, Yule, and Pagan Christmas

[cj.23]

Right, in another thread the claim has been made that Easter derives from both a Jewish and pagan roots - something I find extremely unlikely - it seems to me to clearly come from the Christian response to the Resurrection and the existing Jewish Passover, and I know of no pre-Christian roots for a celebration at the time - but given it's variable quality that would not be hard to find one.

I throw open the challenge to anyone to demonstrate from primary sources any of these things, or a pagan origin for Christmas.

Let's dispose of a few dodgy claims first. We have all heard that Easter derives from an Anglo-Saxon festival dedicated to the Goddess Eostre - but no one has ever found any evidence for the existence of this Goddess, outside of the Christian monk Bede, who in De temporum ratione wrote

Eostur-monath has a name which is now translated Paschal month, and which was once called after a goddess of theirs named Eostre, in whose honour feasts were celebrated in that month. Now they designate that Paschal season by her name, calling the joys of the new rite by the time-honoured name of the old observance

This was his attempted etymology of Easter - which si only called that in English of course. The problem is that as the Goddess in question is completely unknown otherwise, and Bede was an enthusiast for adopting pagan customs in to Christianity or allowing them to persist where it did not impact on Christian doctrine where possible out of kindness and a desire to allow people to keep their old ways, this propoised etymology is probably spurious. In the 19th century a German antiquarian invented Osatra, as the german form, using Bede as his source.

Everyone knows this is true now that Easter is named after Eostre - but it is not. It's a myth, just a veyr persistent one. If you look up the real proposed etymology of Easter i think you will find it is through the Gothic from albinus, but I have not bothered yet. I will if anyone is interested.

On Yule, Bede is our culprit again it seems -- there is no evidence of it being celebrated at Christmastime in pre-Christian times. It was probably part of the Winter Nights, in October. Bede thought it may have been at Christmastime - but our first early native source suggesting Yule was anything to do with December is Snorri Snorrison in the C13th. Of course it is now, as Jul is simply the Danish word (and similar in Swedish and Norwegian AFAIK) for Christmas - but there is no evidence of a Yule holiday there before Bede - sorry.

I'll have a look at the links offered in the other thread later, but really just provide me with any primary sources and I'll cheerfully concede defeat.

On Christmas, the earliest reference to any pagan religious celebration on December 25th is from the Chronography of 254CE, which lists games in honour of the Natali Invicti - birth day of the unconquered - which may be a reference to a Sol Invictus celebration. the Festival of Sol Invictus was in October, and biannually games were held in late summer. We have our earliest reference to Christians celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ on that day in 221CE, 130 years before. No Roman festival occurred between Saturnalia and the Roman New Year, and Saturnalia at it's broadest never hit December 25th...

Still, bring on the evidence.
cj x

 

[ddt]

I have not really anything original to add, but a couple of remarks:

Let's dispose of a few dodgy claims first. We have all heard that Easter derives from an Anglo-Saxon festival dedicated to the Goddess Eostre - but no one has ever found any evidence for the existence of this Goddess, outside of the Christian monk Bede, who in De temporum ratione wrote
[...]
This was his attempted etymology of Easter - which si only called that in English of course.

The German word for Easter is also an odd one out: Ostern. It can be cognate to the English word; the German wiki page gives also some alternative proposed etymologies.
All other Germanic languages, and all Romance languages, use a cognate of the Hebrew word Pesach (= Passover).

The problem is that as the Goddess in question is completely unknown otherwise, and Bede was an enthusiast for adopting pagan customs in to Christianity or allowing them to persist where it did not impact on Christian doctrine where possible out of kindness and a desire to allow people to keep their old ways, this propoised etymology is probably spurious. In the 19th century a German antiquarian invented Osatra, as the german form, using Bede as his source.

That antiquarian would be the brothers Grimm - the same of fairy tale fame - who collected all kind of folklore and also compiled a German dictionary and a work on Germanic mythology. In their entry on Ostern (in German), they mention Bede, and that he might have invented Eostre, on which the supposed goddess Ostara is based. Furthermore, they say that

certain is only, that the underlying Old Germanic word "austrô" is derived from "aust" (sie "ost" = East) and is formed like the Latin word "auster" (morning red).

Furthermore, here and here is an English translation of the chapter in Grimm's "Deutsche mythology" about Eostre/Ostara. This work precedes their dictionary, btw.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Far be it for me to take on an Anglican apologist but, having a few minutes to spare at this time of the Winter Solstice Festival, I did a bit of Googling on Easter. I don't have the time or inclination to track down primary sources but I did try to filter out wooish sites.

Highlighting is mine.
===============
United Church of God

Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, in its entry "Easter," states:

"The term 'Easter' is not of Christian origin. It is another form of Astarte, one of the titles of the Chaldean goddess, the queen of heaven.

The festival of Pasch [Passover] held by Christians in post-apostolic times was a continuation of the Jewish feast . . . From this Pasch the pagan festival of 'Easter' was quite distinct and was introduced into the apostate Western religion, as part of the attempt to adapt pagan festivals to Christianity" (W.E. Vine, 1985).

That's a lot of information packed into one paragraph. Notice what the author, W.E. Vine-a trained classical scholar, theologian, expert in ancient languages and author of several classic Bible helps-tells us:

Easter isn't a Christian or directly biblical term, but comes from a form of the name Astarte, a Chaldean (Babylonian) goddess known as "the queen of heaven." (She is mentioned by that title in the Bible in Jeremiah 7:18 and 44:17-19, 25 and referred to in 1 Kings 11:5, 33 and 2 Kings 23:13 by the Hebrew form of her name, Ashtoreth. So "Easter" is found in the Bible-as part of the pagan religion God condemns!)

Further, early Christians, even after the times of the apostles, continued to observe a variation of the biblical Passover feast (it differed because Jesus introduced new symbolism, as the Bible notes in Matthew 26:26-28 and 1 Corinthians 11:23-28).

Moreover, Easter was very different from the Old Testament Passover or the Passover of the New Testament as understood and practiced by the early Church based on the teachings of Jesus Christ and the apostles.

And again, Easter was a pagan festival, originating in the worship of other gods, and was introduced much later into an apostate Christianity in a deliberate attempt to make such festivals acceptable. http://knol.google.com/k/united-church-of-god/what-are-the-real-origins-of-easter/okntpffreubl/57#

==============
Internet Encyclopedia of Ukraine,
Hosted by the Canadian Institute of Ukrainian Studies

Easter is the principal spring festival (see Spring rituals), and a series of rites have become centered around it that, in the distant past, were connected with the Annunciation, with Saint George, and even with the rites of the winter cycle, especially those of New Year's Day.

Easter rites preserve traces of pre-Christian rites, which in general show a striking similarity to those of Christmas and New Year's. These rites are closely related to agriculture, to the remembrance of the dead, and to the marriage season; during their performance, praise is given, ritual songs are sung, and there is much well-wishing.
http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/pages/E/A/Easter.htm

==============
United Church of God, an International Association

Celebrating the resurrection of a deceased deity in a springtime festival also long predates Christianity. Chief among such celebrations were those in honor of Tammuz, the Babylonian "god of pasture and flocks...and of vegetation. He was husband and brother of Ishtar (Asherah), goddess of fertility. Babylonian epics preserve the saga of the annual dying of Tammuz in the autumn when vegetation withered; his departure to the underworld; his recovery by the mourning Ishtar; and his springtime return to the fertilized upper world" (Harper's Bible Dictionary, 1961, article, "Tammuz").

The Babylonians taught that Tammuz was mystically revived from death in the spring by the anguish and crying of Ishtar, who was the same as the pagan goddess Ashtoreth referred to in Scripture (Judges 2:13; 10:6; 1Kings 11:5). This ancient custom of mourning for the return of a dead god is mentioned in Ezekiel 8:14, where we read that women are "weeping for Tammuz." His supposed resurrection marked the end of winter and the beginning of spring, with its new life and vegetation.

http://www.ucgstp.org/lit/gn/gn003/gn003f05.htm

==============
Catholic Encyclopedia

In the rest of the empire another consideration predominated. Every Sunday of the year was a commemoration of the Resurrection of Christ, which had occurred on a Sunday. Because the Sunday after 14 Nisan was the historical day of the Resurrection, at Rome this Sunday became the Christian feast of Easter.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05224d.htm

Let me just say, additionally, that the effort that Christian Church has made over the centuries to destroy "pagan" records, I am surprised that there are any documents left what-so-ever that could potentially cast doubt in the minds of the Shepard's sheep in the "uniqueness" of Christian belief.

Remember the Cathars.

 

[qayak]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sol_Invictus

According to the New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, article on Constantine the Great:

"Besides, the Sol Invictus had been adopted by the Christians in a Christian sense, as demonstrated in the Christ as Apollo-Helios in a mausoleum (c. 250) discovered beneath St. Peter's in the Vatican."

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sol_Invictus

According to the New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, article on Constantine the Great:

"Besides, the Sol Invictus had been adopted by the Christians in a Christian sense, as demonstrated in the Christ as Apollo-Helios in a mausoleum (c. 250) discovered beneath St. Peter's in the Vatican."

So. Similar to co-option of Hermes and his lamb? Explains those earlier statues with the baa-lamb and the lack of any cruciform symbols for the first couple of centuries AD.

 

[cj.23]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sol_Invictus

According to the New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, article on Constantine the Great:

"Besides, the Sol Invictus had been adopted by the Christians in a Christian sense, as demonstrated in the Christ as Apollo-Helios in a mausoleum (c. 250) discovered beneath St. Peter's in the Vatican."

Yes: this is the kind of stuff that has led people to cite Cumont as backing the idea that Christianity was based on Mithraism. Nobody, not even I, dispute that Christian Iconography (which really means fourth century onwards-- I doubt that mosaic is third but have not checked) stole heavily from the prevailing Classical iconography (which includes Mithraic imagery) . Yet iconography, artistic trends are not theology, and bibles illustrated in the 1960's are obviously influenced by 60s art and graphic design, etc, etc!

Now Mausoleum M is late 3rd to early 4th -- ok I just checked-- and the depiction of Christ is that of "light of the world" - from John's Gospel, as are the vine leaves using contemporary iconography of Helios sure. No evidence of doctrinal borrowing here - and we have to be very careful about such claims. My favourite is this

"According to the Realencyclopaedie, the inscription "Chrestos" is to be seen on a Mithras relief in the Vatican."

You will find this on many woo websites - and it actually sounds plausible enough, chrestos meaning "good"

Unfortunately it's nonsense - the claim is made in Duke, Johann Jakob (ed.): Real-Encyklopädie for Protestant theology and church, Vol 1-22, Hamburg 1854-1866

However apart from this 143 year old Protestant Encyclopedia's claims, there is absolutely no substantiating evidence before or since,for the inscription? I can find no trace of it in the standard works on Mithraism, or any other source? In does not feature in any guidebook, any travellers account I can find, any Vatican publication (and they claim no knowledge of it) or any other source apart from websites recycling this century and a half old slander about the Papacy being closet pagans. (I'm a Protestant myself as it happens and no great fan of the Papacy, but this is nonsense!)

Problem is that EVEN if it sis exist, so what? My guess is it is a garbled account of the tomb of the julii/mausoleum M mosaic you describe - but actually that has tremendous implications -- in an odd way. Recall I said that the only evidence for a Sol Invictus (sort of related to mithraism, but not the same) celebration was the Chronography of 354? The inscription there is
B G VIII N·INVICTI·CM·XXX
N. Invicti - the "Birthday of the Unconquered". Wikipedia on Sol Invictus adds to this a little -- or rather shows us the confusion

Sol Invictus ("Unconquered Sun") was the Roman state-supported sun god created by the emperor Aurelian in 274... Although known as a god, the term Unconquered Sun God is not found on any Roman document.
The Romans held a festival on December 25 of Dies Natalis Solis Invicti, "the birthday of the unconquered sun." December 25 was the date after the winter solstice, with the first detectable lengthening of daylight hours.

The first part is true - Sol Invictus is known to us though the title does not appear anywhere. But wait! Surely it does in the Chronography of 354? No, because all we know about those games is that commemorate the "birthday of the unconquered". Rather odd in the Christian Rome of 354 don't you think? So what is going on? Well maybe the title "unconquered" was now in use for the Christian messiah Jesus Christ - after all Christ is a title with a long antiquity - using superlatives to describe him hardly uncommon. If so the last piece of evidence for a December 25th pagan celebration disappears. I'll think some more on this, and ask around a bit. Pearse things lit likely Sol Invictus was a title applied to a specific deity, I'm not so sure - I am certain I have seen Invictus applied to other deities as an appellation. Still most importantly, in this source we still have no "Sol Invictus"- the sun never gets a mention anywhere.


Right, guess i'd better reply to Gord.


cj x

 

[cj.23]

So. Similar to co-option of Hermes and his lamb? Explains those earlier statues with the baa-lamb and the lack of any cruciform symbols for the first couple of centuries AD.

Lambs were common owing to the shepherd symbolism. Not aware of any Hermes with lamb statues can you point me to one? However one of the earliest Christian symbols was the anchor, and of course the famous fish. There are claims of evidence of a crucifix having been mounted in a chapel at Pompeii (pre-79CE) but the Alexamenos graffito is the earliest known depiction of a crucifix.

cj x

 

[tyr_13]

So where did the name Easter come from? The tradition of painting eggs and hiding them in the nests of rabbits (common for Celtic life goddess celebrations) just happened to coincide with the 'unique' tradition of Christianity?

And what about the tree for Christmas? How about just about all the parts of just about all Christian holidays besides going to Church? Why for 300+ years was Christmas not celebrated?

And what, exactly, makes you doubt Bebe?

 

[cj.23]

Far be it for me to take on an Anglican apologist

Cut to Lambeth Palace, where ArchDruid Rowan Williams sits with Cardinal Biggles of the Anglican Inquisition in the comfy chairs.
Archdruid: "What news Cardinal?"
Cardinal Biggles: "CJ.23 is busy smiting the Heathens my satanic majesty, and he has not even employed St. Izzards 'Cake or Death' argument!"
Archdruid: "how so then- how does he further the Great Anglican Jihad and deceive the unbelievers?"
Cardinal Biggles "he has ruthlessly employed real history and facts Your Ominousness, to confuse them! A new weapon in our diabolical arsenal, maybe one we should have employed before - the TRUTH!"
FX: both men cackle evilly in to their goblets, as thunder crashes and lightning outside the window casts eerie shadows across the room....

but, having a few minutes to spare at this time of the Winter Solstice Festival, I did a bit of Googling on Easter. I don't have the time or inclination to track down primary sources but I did try to filter out wooish sites.

I appreciate the effort - really we need primary sources, as so much utter nonsense is in circulation - even in the Catholic Encylopedia! Still lets have a look...

Your first source is quite incredible - Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words - it's not a bad resource for New Testament Greek I guess, but this book, published between 1920 and 1940 by W.E.Vine i am afraid just reflects Plymouth Brethren theology on this point - not anything to do with fact. (The Plymouth Brethren are the folks responsible for that oddity of North American Protestantism known as Dispensationalism, and the unique belief in the Rapture, now common across the USA though unknown to Christianity almost everywhere else and for most of the religions history. I often think it might be why US Protestantism is so odd (I almost said heretical ). Anyway - the Brethren believe Easter and Christmas are pagan customs. I can't take the proposed link with Astarte seriously, but I guess it sounds similar - Astarte (that's Ashtoreth to you and me). The problem is of course finding a link between the Greek Astarte, a minor goddess, and the use of Easter many centuries later. The reference to her as "Queen of Heaven" is a little worrying too - I figure it might be a dig at Roman Catholicism, where that title has been applied to the Virgin Mary, a usage that becomes common in the 12th century. The Canaanite Asherah, referred to by Jeremiah as the "queen of heaven" worshipped by ye dodgy pagans was Asherah, who may or may not be the same goddess as Ashtoreth/Astarte - but it is not as certain as Vines implies. Vines provides us with no etymological progression from Astarte to Easter, or explanation as to why people in Anglo-Saxon England would choose to name their festival after a minor Middle Eastern goddess anyway! I am afraid it's a historical nonsense, spun for theological reasons - to attack Easter as pagan.

The other sources simply repeat the usual nonsense, without primary citations. A good way to spot woo here is the suggestion that the solstices were considered major religious festivals in pagan antiquity. They weren't. In fact the notion they were really only dates to the last decades of the 19th century, and has more to do with occultism than history. Frazer popularized a lot of this with his Vegetation Gods crap in the infamous The Golden Bough, and the ideas have become as ingrained in popular understanding as say Freudianism has, with even less supporting evidence.

The reference to Tammuz is interesting - he is indeed the only dying and reborn God of the Frazerian vegetation type i can think of who actually can hold up to any scrutiny. Tammuz is killed, passes in to the otherworld, and is rescued by his wife in a sort of reverse of the Orpheus myth. All good stuff - but nothing to do with Easter, or the Christian story of the Resurrection, though over a millennium earlier. (Ezekiel mentions him so he was still worshipped in the 500s BCE).

I'll dig out my notes on him actually - some intertesting stuff. Anyway, keep looking - may find something I have missed (though I have been assidously searching for a long time now...)

Let me just say, additionally, that the effort that Christian Church has made over the centuries to destroy "pagan" records, I am surprised that there are any documents left what-so-ever that could potentially cast doubt in the minds of the Shepard's sheep in the "uniqueness" of Christian belief.

Please cite examples of this alleged destruction, and evidence it was a general trend? I feel rather the opposite is true...

Remember the Cathars.

I do - I have written an awful lot on them. The 13th century is my period remember? Talking of which - I'd better get back to work...

cj x

 

[ImaginalDisc]

I rarely put anyone on ignore, and those few people I have are usually banned shortly afterwards. cj.23, I put you on ignore because, despite posters clearly and patiently explaining how your claims are either refuted by all evidence, or how your claims have no supporting evidence at all, you continue to repeat them and deny any refutations even exist. I dispair of your ever learning.

 

[cj.23]

So where did the name Easter come from?

`
From the Anglo-Saxon word for East, being East, most likely, or as some have argued through a corruption of a term used for the white surplice used in the period n Easter though the Gothic word therefore. I think the Saxon looks strongest? Typing Etymology +Easter in to Google should find many article son this issue.

The tradition of painting eggs and hiding them in the nests of rabbits (common for Celtic life goddess celebrations) just happened to coincide with the 'unique' tradition of Christianity?

No, because it never happened. Find me any primary source for this. I am aware of no pre-13th century account of painted eggs etc? Maybe you can surprise me with a primary source? The classic study is Newell's 1971 book - http://www.amazon.co.uk/Egg-Easter-F...9384936&sr=8-1 Besides its not a Christian practice is it? Well if Santa coming down your chimney is then yes. Anyway I am pretty certain you will find no evidence of pre-Christian Goddesses, especially Celtic ones, getting folks to hunt painted eggs down rabbit holes. One often sees this claim about the Anglo Saxon Goddess Eostre, but her worshipers were hampered in this practice by not existing in the first place, outside of Bede's imagination. It's all woo.

And what about the tree for Christmas? How about just about all the parts of just about all Christian holidays besides going to Church?

The Christmas Tree is a German custom dating from the first half of the sixteenth century, and popularized widely in the 18th onwards. Decorating churches with evergreens had been a feature of Christmas and Easter worship since the 14th century. No historian has ever found any evidence of a pagan origin thereof - Hutton, himself a pagan decries the notion in his magisterial Stations of the Son (Oxford University Press, 1996). Give me other specific examples of customs and i'll tell you when they entered our Christmas celebrations.

Why for 300+ years was Christmas not celebrated?

[/quote]
Which 300 years did you have in mind?

And what, exactly, makes you doubt Bebe?

Bede admits this idea is his speculation - he is not actually aware of a goddess called Eostre, he just thinks there was one. There is not a single reference to her, from the Anglo-Saxon Chronicles, any of the other writings we have from the period, or from inscriptions. No depiction - no amulets - nothing. Her Germanic version was invented completely in the 19th century, and again has no evidence whatsoever from history or archeology to back it up. So Bede was, as he often was, wrong - but in line with his own slightly odd but very humane prejudices. Read the first couple of chapters of his Ecclesiastical History and you will get the picture


cj x

 

[cj.23]

I rarely put anyone on ignore, and those few people I have are usually banned shortly afterwards. cj.23, I put you on ignore because, despite posters clearly and patiently explaining how your claims are either refuted by all evidence, or how your claims have no supporting evidence at all, you continue to repeat them and deny any refutations even exist. I dispair of your ever learning.

Actually I would be surprised if I am banned for my comments on this. I am rather surprised you think I did not offer supporting evidence - I have bothered to spend several years familiarizing myself with the primary sources and modern secondary literature, and critiquing the mountains of nonsense spouted about these topics. I think you will find my claims have got supporting evidence - and if asked I will always cheerfully provide relevant bibliographic references for my assertions.

Still if you think you can refute my statements please be my guest, though as you have put me on ignore I don't think that is an option. I rather suspect you are not interested in facts - merely in maintaining your position regardless of any contrary evidence - but I hope to be proved wrong. As it is, feel free to believe whatever woo pleases you -- maybe you'd enjoy a copy of Zeitgeist or Freke & Gandy's latest?

cj x

 

[ParrotPirate]

Actually,your Christianity is all woo,too. All religion is equally woo,as all religion is invented in the heads of humans.

 

[tyr_13]

`
From the Anglo-Saxon word for East, being East, most likely, or as some have argued through a corruption of a term used for the white surplice used in the period n Easter though the Gothic word therefore. I think the Saxon looks strongest? Typing Etymology +Easter in to Google should find many article son this issue.

So the Teutonic goddess of Spring, Eastre, never existed? What does the word 'East' have to do with the resurrection? Besides, all my Google fu yields are articles exactly opposite your position and supportive of mine.

No, because it never happened. Find me any primary source for this. I am aware of no pre-13th century account of painted eggs etc? Maybe you can surprise me with a primary source? The classic study is Newell's 1971 book - http://www.amazon.co.uk/Egg-Easter-F...9384936&sr=8-1 Besides its not a Christian practice is it? Well if Santa coming down your chimney is then yes. Anyway I am pretty certain you will find no evidence of pre-Christian Goddesses, especially Celtic ones, getting folks to hunt painted eggs down rabbit holes. One often sees this claim about the Anglo Saxon Goddess Eostre, but her worshipers were hampered in this practice by not existing in the first place, outside of Bede's imagination. It's all woo.

"Even the early Egyptians and Persians dyed eggs in spring colors and gave them to friends. Ancient religions commonly held such festivals including the Greek legend of the return of Persephone, daughter of Demeter, goddess of the earth, from the underworld to the light of day. Her return symbolized to the Greeks the resurrection of life in the spring after the desolation of winter."
-Jim Walker

I know, primary sources. Interesting enough, at http://www.eggs.ca/allabouteggs/briefhistory.aspx, it repeats the same thing. Also on the name, wikipedia's sources include, "Ronald Hutton states that: "Modern scholarship finds her name cognate with many Indo-European words for dawn, which presents a high possibility that she was a dawn-goddess, and so April as the Eostre-month was the month of opening and new beginning, which makes sense in a North German climate.""

The Christmas Tree is a German custom dating from the first half of the sixteenth century, and popularized widely in the 18th onwards. Decorating churches with evergreens had been a feature of Christmas and Easter worship since the 14th century. No historian has ever found any evidence of a pagan origin thereof - Hutton, himself a pagan decries the notion in his magisterial Stations of the Son (Oxford University Press, 1996). Give me other specific examples of customs and i'll tell you when they entered our Christmas celebrations.

Actually the origins of the Christmas tree goes way back, why do you think the Germans of the sixteenth century were doing it? http://www.christmas-tree.com/where.html and http://www.religioustolerance.org/xmas_tree.htm have good stuff about that, and references. The roots, as it were, go all the way back to at least ancient Egypt. So to claim that the Germans of the 1500's came up with it, is just, well, silly.

Which 300 years did you have in mind?

From http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm, "Christmas was not among the earliest festivals of the Church. Irenaeus and Tertullian omit it from their lists of feasts; Origen, glancing perhaps at the discreditable imperial Natalitia, asserts (in Lev. Hom. viii in Migne, P.G., XII, 495) that in the Scriptures sinners alone, not saints, celebrate their birthday; Arnobius (VII, 32 in P.L., V, 1264) can still ridicule the "birthdays" of the gods."

Bede admits this idea is his speculation - he is not actually aware of a goddess called Eostre, he just thinks there was one. There is not a single reference to her, from the Anglo-Saxon Chronicles, any of the other writings we have from the period, or from inscriptions. No depiction - no amulets - nothing. Her Germanic version was invented completely in the 19th century, and again has no evidence whatsoever from history or archeology to back it up. So Bede was, as he often was, wrong - but in line with his own slightly odd but very humane prejudices. Read the first couple of chapters of his Ecclesiastical History and you will get the picture


cj x

No evidence, besides the mouth named for her, the fact the word means the beginning of spring, and that even if the goddess never existed, that doesn't make Easter Christian.

 

[qayak]

Right, guess i'd better reply to Gord.

No, you had better go back and try again. What you have completely missed, or ignored, here is that the quote I posted is the Vatican itself admitting that the festival of Sol Invictus had been taken over by christians for christian purposes.

You also missed the part in the article where the Rat tried to refute the claim that christmas was adopted from the Sol Invictus festival.

You will also note where Pope Leo I states:

"But this Nativity which is to be adored in heaven and on earth is suggested to us by no day more than this when, with the early light still shedding its rays on nature, there is borne in upon our senses the brightness of this wondrous mystery."

He is clearly stating that the Dec. 25 was chosen because it is the day of the birth of the sun.

I am also looking for the quote where an early christian leader trying to persuade pagans to follow Jesus states that it shoudl be easy for them because they are simply swapping their sun god for the new christian sun god.

 

[cj.23]

Actually,your Christianity is all woo,too. All religion is equally woo,as all religion is invented in the heads of humans.

In the same way all art, all languages, and all mathematics is? They were all invented in the heads of humans too. Regardless of that, none of this has any reference to the truth of Christianity - everything I said could be completely true, and Christainity completely false. Among those who agree strongly with me on the authorities on this issue are pagan and Chrisian and non-Christian of other faith historians. This is not a faith issue - it's a historical one. (hence in history sub-fora)

cj x

 

[Mojo]

In the same way all art, all languages, and all mathematics is? They were all invented in the heads of humans too.

Art, languages and mathematics don't claim that their imaginary friends are real.

 

[This Guy]

No, you had better go back and try again. What you have completely missed, or ignored, here is that the quote I posted is the Vatican itself admitting that the festival of Sol Invictus had been taken over by christians for christian purposes.

You also missed the part in the article where the Rat tried to refute the claim that christmas was adopted from the Sol Invictus festival.

You will also note where Pope Leo I states:

"But this Nativity which is to be adored in heaven and on earth is suggested to us by no day more than this when, with the early light still shedding its rays on nature, there is borne in upon our senses the brightness of this wondrous mystery."

He is clearly stating that the Dec. 25 was chosen because it is the day of the birth of the sun.

I am also looking for the quote where an early christian leader trying to persuade pagans to follow Jesus states that it shoudl be easy for them because they are simply swapping their sun god for the new christian sun god.

Is this what your thinking of? -

Chapter 21. Analogies to the history of Christ
And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter. For you know how many sons your esteemed writers ascribed to Jupiter: Mercury, the interpreting word and teacher of all; Æsculapius, who, though he was a great physician, was struck by a thunderbolt, and so ascended to heaven; and Bacchus too, after he had been torn limb from limb; and Hercules, when he had committed himself to the flames to escape his toils; and the sons of Leda, and Dioscuri; and Perseus, son of Danae; and Bellerophon, who, though sprung from mortals, rose to heaven on the horse Pegasus. For what shall I say of Ariadne, and those who, like her, have been declared to be set among the stars? And what of the emperors who die among yourselves, whom you deem worthy of deification, and in whose behalf you produce some one who swears he has seen the burning Cæsar rise to heaven from the funeral pyre? And what kind of deeds are recorded of each of these reputed sons of Jupiter, it is needless to tell to those who already know. This only shall be said, that they are written for the advantage and encouragement of youthful scholars; for all reckon it an honourable thing to imitate the gods. But far be such a thought concerning the gods from every well-conditioned soul, as to believe that Jupiter himself, the governor and creator of all things, was both a parricide and the son of a parricide, and that being overcome by the love of base and shameful pleasures, he came in to Ganymede and those many women whom he had violated and that his sons did like actions. But, as we said above, wicked devils perpetrated these things. And we have learned that those only are deified who have lived near to God in holiness and virtue; and we believe that those who live wickedly and do not repent are punished in everlasting fire.

This is from Justin Martyr's (born c. 100, Flavia Neapolis, Palestine [now Nāblus] died c. 165, Rome [Italy]; feast day June 1) First Apology, which can be found here.

ETA:

This was written to Emperor Titus.

Chapter 1. Address
To the Emperor Titus Ælius Adrianus Antoninus Pius Augustus Cæsar, and to his son Verissimus the Philosopher, and to Lucius the Philosopher, the natural son of Cæsar, and the adopted son of Pius, a lover of learning, and to the sacred Senate, with the whole People of the Romans, I, Justin, the son of Priscus and grandson of Bacchius, natives of Flavia Neapolis in Palestine, present this address and petition in behalf of those of all nations who are unjustly hated and wantonly abused, myself being one of them.

From the same link.

 

[cj.23]

So the Teutonic goddess of Spring, Eastre, never existed? What does the word 'East' have to do with the resurrection? Besides, all my Google fu yields are articles exactly opposite your position and supportive of mine.

You mean it finds dozens of articles supporting the fact that Bede said Easter derived from Eostre. No one denies that fact - what is a problem is the lack of an Eostre. Any Anglo-Saxon culture and religion authorities on the forum? If not I will go find a few for you. Has it not struck you as odd that Bede, living in a Christianized country long after the demise of the worship of said Goiddess might be aware of a Goddess we have absolutely no evidence for elsewhere? And why would the early Saxon Church choose to name the festival after a goddess anyway? All you have to do to falsify this theory is to find actual worship of this entity, or a reference to her, before Bede.

"Even the early Egyptians and Persians dyed eggs in spring colors and gave them to friends. Ancient religions commonly held such festivals including the Greek legend of the return of Persephone, daughter of Demeter, goddess of the earth, from the underworld to the light of day. Her return symbolized to the Greeks the resurrection of life in the spring after the desolation of winter."
-Jim Walker

I know, primary sources. Interesting enough, at http://www.eggs.ca/allabouteggs/briefhistory.aspx, it repeats the same thing. Also on the name, wikipedia's sources include, "Ronald Hutton states that: "Modern scholarship finds her name cognate with many Indo-European words for dawn, which presents a high possibility that she was a dawn-goddess, and so April as the Eostre-month was the month of opening and new beginning, which makes sense in a North German climate.""

I don't think there is any primary evidence for the eggs things - certainly eggs appear in early inscriptions, with cup and ring symbols, in the British Isles - and were doubtless involvedin some way in religion. What nobody can demonstrate is any connection between say second millenium BCE depictions of eggs on rocks and the 13th century habit of painting eggs at Easter in Germany. Or if they can academic folklorists and historians have missed the link: I'm always open to new evidence.

The quote from Hutton is genuine, but hoping Ron does not mind (and I doubt he will - he is an excellent chap and as it happens a pagan who I have enjoyed meeting at many a moot, the very fact of which probably tells you I'm no pagan-basher!) I'll cite the rest of the passage, as it may be misleading as cited on said website... in fact it is misquoted rather badly. I doubt the author of the article intentionally did this - he has paraphrased Hutton, but not really accurately - I happen to be very good friends with one of the White Dragon bunch, and like the mag a lot, though I have never met the chap who wrote this.

The other is that the Anglo-Saxon eastre, signifying both the festival and the season of spring, is associated with a set of words in various Indo-European languages,signifying dawn and also goddesses who personified that event, such as the Greek Eos, the Roman Aurora, and the Indian Ushas. It is therefore quite possible to argue that Bede's Eostre was a German dawn-deity who was venerated at this season of opening and new beginnings. It is equally valid, however, to suggest that the Anglo-Saxon "Estor-monath"simply meant "the month of opening", or the "month of beginning", and that Bede mistakenly connected it with a goddess who either never existed at all, or was never associated with a particular season, but merely, like Eos and Aurora, with the Dawn itself."

compare and contrast with --

"Modern scholarship finds her name cognate with many Indo-European words for dawn, which presents a high possibility that she was a dawn-goddess, and so April as the Eostre-month was the month of opening and new beginning, which makes sense in a North German climate.""

Hutton footnotes a 1993 publication by Alby Stone in the magazine Talking Stick - I have not seen it but would like to. If anyone can help drop me a pm - it's issue 10 I'm after. Stone apparently "asserts the case against Bedes identification with considerable force." I will note that it was actually my time involved in Anglo-Saxon studies that I first came to accept the lack of a goddess |Eostre - we have no evidence at all, apart from Bede. Fine me some and i will reconsider, for the moment i'm sticling with the mainstream opinion among Dark Age scholars on this isue - she never existed.


Have to grab a coffee then will continue with the reply. Good research though, but still to falsify the current scholarly hypothesis which I'm presenting we need primary evidence.

cj x

 

[cj.23]

Art, languages and mathematics don't claim that their imaginary friends are real.

We would not get very far if we did not treat our "imaginary friends" of numbers and words as real though, or as signifying real external things? Still this is another discussion!