Israeli blockade 'forces Palestinians to search rubbish dumps for food'

[FireGarden]

Of course, the Palestinians could have defeated this evil plan by not killing civilians.

So you agree with Rika's claim regarding Israel's reasoning about settlements?

If the claim is accurate, I would like to see it backed up.

But hey, killing civilians randomly is what Palestinians do.

Your racism is noted.

 

[FireGarden]

I'm sorry, Rika, but I'm having trouble understanding your position.

Why were settlements in the West Bank and Gaza, which were dangerous to live in, subsidised so poor people were encouraged to move there?

Prior to the signing of the Israeli-Egyptian peace treaty, the eruption of the First Intifada in the late eighties, down to the signing of the Israeli-Jordanian peace treaty in 1994, Israeli governments on the left and right argued that the settlements were of strategic and tactical importance. The location of the settlements was primarily chosen based on the threat of an attack by the bordering hostile countries of Jordan, Syria, and Egypt and possible routes of advance into Israeli population areas

And now you say:

Yes. I'm not saying it's right. Also: Er, so that's OK? I don't honestly care what they think, and if they want to live there, they can. At this point, all Isreal needs to do is go 'yeah, most of them belong to Palestine.'

.. since apparently they're selfacting as their own police (the settlers)

So do you think it's okay to abandon the people who you say were subsidised and encouraged to live in dangerous areas? -- as human shields, effectively.

It's very confusing.

 

[gdnp]

Anyway.

I want you (Gdnp and TFT) to tell me what you would do to protect your citizens under the current situation and attacks. I asked this earlier, no one answerd, I'll ask it again.

How would you a) protect the security of Isreali citizens and b) provide relief to the Palestinains?

I don't understand the question. Are you referring to Israeli citizens living within the internationally recognized borders of Israel, or those living in the occupied territories?

Regarding the current rockets being fired from Gaza, I would do pretty much what the Israelis are doing now: wait for favorable weather and then launch attacks on Hamas command and control, aiming for the Hamas leadership who claim they wish to be martyrs, realizing that there will be many civilian casualties and much of the world will condemn the action.

After the rocket fire has died down, I would reexamine my policies and try to determine which of them contributed to the current situation, and try to avoid repeating those policies. Essentially, ask the question "what polices can we follow that will strengthen those desiring a peaceful solution and weaken those that wish continued conflict?"

That is, assuming that my goal was to come to a peaceful accommodation, which I believe to be the goal of most in Israel. There are others who wish a greater Israel and there numbers are not small. There are perhaps a few who wish to perpetuate the conflict indefinitely, or at least who prefer this to giving up Israeli control.

 

[gdnp]

I dunno why it's so "difficult for me to comprehend" giving air and sea control to an Internationally-recognized Islamist terror organization. I guess I am just really really stupid.

You continue to confuse apples and oranges: the difference between "should" and "is"

We are not debating the wisdom of giving control of the borders of Gaza to Hamas. I think that it would be a really dumb move under current circumstances. That is the question of "should".

That is not the question, however. What you refuse to accept is reality: the question of "is". As long as Israel maintains control of the borders of Gaza Israel remains the occupying power. They control how much food, medicine, and fuel go in. They control what exports go out. Whether you think this is a good situation or a bad situation it is undeniably the current situation with which we must deal.

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Of course, the Palestinians could have defeated this evil plan by not killing civilians.

But hey, killing civilians randomly is what Palestinians do.

Overt racism from Skeptic there!!! Imagine the forum outcry if someone here had said ...

"But hey, killing civilians randomly is what Jews do."


Now what was that about you accusing others of racism Skeptic? Skeptic has blown his cover.

I guess we could call it the "Ted Haggard syndrome" eh?

 

[Thunder]

Of course, the Palestinians could have defeated this evil plan by not killing civilians.

But hey, killing civilians randomly is what Palestinians do.

Hamas kills innocent civilians. Hamas does not equal ALL 4 million Palestinians.

Are you arguing that ALL Palestinians are guilty for..and should be punished for..the crimes of Hamas?

You do see the flip side of that logic?

"Israel kills civilians. Therefore all Israelis should be punished for these crimes."

and even worse:

"Israel is the Jewish state. Almost all Jews support Israel. Therefore, all Jews should suffer for the crimes of Israel".

Lets not go down this road of broad generalizations and collective guilt..shall we?

 

[Skeptic]

Hamas kills innocent civilians. Hamas does not equal ALL 4 million Palestinians.

Are you arguing that ALL Palestinians are guilty for..and should be punished for..the crimes of Hamas?

In what sense?

In the sense that Palestinians should be randomly killed in revenge on Israel? No, of course not--but Israel is not doing that. Its attacks today, for instance, were all on Hamas military installations. In the sense that as long as a neo-Nazi genocidal organization leads them, their suffering is largely due to their own doing? Yes. Especially since they themselves gave Hamas a landslide victory in their elections.

What would YOU think if Canada overwhelmingly elected as PM someone whose expressed goal is the invasion and destruction of the USA (I mean, "occupied southern Canada"), and who will start bombing Detroit and Chicago constantly with missiles? Oh, I'm SURE you'd then consider blockading Canada a war crime, and think that the USA should continue to support it with water, gas, electricity, etc. OF COURSE you would. After all, you wouldn't want to punish ALL Canadians for "the actions of their government", would you? The people of Detroit and Chicago would just have to learn to live with daily bombings, I guess.

Can you say "double standard"? I knew you could.

To give another example: anyway, think about the Germans in WWII: as long as the genocidal Nazi party headed them, and as long as that party led Germany to war with the world, like Hamas is doing in fighting a war with Israel, they could hardly complain that the bombings of, say, Berlin or Nuremberg haven't killed only Nazi party members, or that the British naval blockade had made life miserable to those who weren't V2 launch crews. Or do you consider Churchill or the 8th Air force to be "war criminals" for "punishing all Germans for the crimes of the Nazis"?

So no, Israel should not randomly kill Palestinians. Israel should not commit war crimes. It doesn't, Hamas propaganda to the contrary notwithstanding. Israel should, however -- and has the right to -- react to the Hamas' bombing of Israel in exactly the same way Britian reacted to Hitler's bombing of Britian, and in exactly the same way the USA would have reacted to the (hypothetical) case of Canada bombing the USA on the orders of a genocidal government which was elected in a landslide. Even if it hurts innocents Canadians or have hurt innocent Germans.

P.S.

Of course Hamas will claim now all the dead ae innocent civlians, etc., etc., but hey, they always do -- and, incidentally, they will add to this "Israel killed innocents" statement a sworn statement that they will now kill every Jew they can lay their hands on "in revenge" -- despite the fact that they have consistently claimed they will kill every Jew they can lay their hands on since the founding of the Hamas organization. So, yes, Virginia, there is an Irony God: those whose official goal is the genocide of all the Jews, will declare Israel is committing "crimes against humanity". That rather empties their "moral high ground" of any meaning, although the usual gang of idiots doesn't seem to notice that.

Ah well.

(That said, to be fair, Hamas' complaints about Israeli killing innocents and commiting of acts of terrorism should be taken very seriously: theirs is certainly an expert's opinion on such matters.)

 

[WildCat]

I dunno why it's so "difficult for me to comprehend" giving air and sea control to an Internationally-recognized Islamist terror organization. I guess I am just really really stupid.

I'd also love to hear the Hamas apologists here explain why an internationally recognized terrorist organization should be allowed to control the movement of weapons goods into the areas they control.

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Hamas kills innocent civilians. Hamas does not equal ALL 4 million Palestinians.

Are you arguing that ALL Palestinians are guilty for..and should be punished for..the crimes of Hamas?

You do see the flip side of that logic?

"Israel kills civilians. Therefore all Israelis should be punished for these crimes."

and even worse:

"Israel is the Jewish state. Almost all Jews support Israel. Therefore, all Jews should suffer for the crimes of Israel".

Lets not go down this road of broad generalizations and collective guilt..shall we?

Parky I'm glad you are trying to distance yourself from the racists here.

 

[Thunder]

Parky I'm glad you are trying to distance yourself from the racists here.

Save your compliments. I am not on your side. I view all human life as valuable. That's who's side I am on.

 

[Thunder]

I'd also love to hear the Hamas apologists here explain why an internationally recognized terrorist organization should be allowed to control the movement of weapons goods into the areas they control.

The answer to Hamas is not only allowing in enough food, water, medicine, and fuel, that is neccessary to prevent a humanitarian disaster.

Israel really stepped in it when they made that decision.

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Save your compliments. I am not on your side. I view all human life as valuable. That's who's side I am on.

Then you are on my side!

 

[WildCat]

The answer to Hamas is not only allowing in enough food, water, medicine, and fuel, that is neccessary to prevent a humanitarian disaster.

Israel really stepped in it when they made that decision.

Yes, a humanitarian disaster is what generally happens when a weak country declares war on a strong one.

Guess the Gazan's didn't think too far ahead when they overwhelmingly elected a genocidal internationally recognized terrorist group to be their government, huh?

 

[gdnp]

Yes, a humanitarian disaster is what generally happens when a weak country declares war on a strong one.

Guess the Gazan's didn't think too far ahead when they overwhelmingly elected a genocidal internationally recognized terrorist group to be their government, huh?

You'd think they would have looked them up on Wikipedia first.

 

[Thunder]

Then you are on my side!

Please don't insult me anymore.

I do not support and apologize for anti-Semites and other racists. I do not apologize for acts of violence against innocent Israeli civilians.

We are not on the same side.

 

[Thunder]

Yes, a humanitarian disaster is what generally happens when a weak country declares war on a strong one.

Guess the Gazan's didn't think too far ahead when they overwhelmingly elected a genocidal internationally recognized terrorist group to be their government, huh?

The election of an unpopular party to power..is a declaration of war?

Wow.

Judeo-fascism is alive and well.

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Please don't insult me anymore.

I do not support and apologize for anti-Semites and other racists. I do not apologize for acts of violence against innocent Israeli civilians.

Neither do I buddy.

 

[Dr Adequate]

I'd also love to hear the Hamas apologists here explain why an internationally recognized terrorist organization should be allowed to control the movement of weapons goods into the areas they control.

Although I am not an apologist for Hamas, an organization that I loathe, I can explain that to you: it is because the Israeli blockade has ensured that Hamas are the only people in a position to control the flow of goods.

I may have already pointed out that this is not a good idea.

 

[WildCat]

The election of an unpopular party to power..is a declaration of war?

Wow.

Excuse me? Read my post again, this time with comprehension.

Judeo-fascism is alive and well.

I'm not even Jewish parky. Maybe I'm a crypto-Jew, or a secret Jew...

 

[WildCat]

Although I am not an apologist for Hamas, an organization that I loathe, I can explain that to you: it is because the Israeli blockade has ensured that Hamas are the only people in a position to control the flow of goods.

I may have already pointed out that this is not a good idea.

Hamas will control the flow of goods with or without a "blockade". Lifting the blockade merely gives them more goods to control.