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Pilots For 9/11 Truth Present Their Math

Why all the anger? What has any of that gibberish to do with my post you quoted? I only suggested you check with Mr Reheat before making a fool of yourself and getting tossed out of your newly found home away from home and subsequently away from all "Truthers". Do you feel safe here?

It wasn't me who deleted all of my files; screwing over thousands of people from both sides of the debate who had linked to your research and photos. Are you proud of yourself? Did it make you feel good getting even with . . . . . . everybody?

No anger here, nothing but love for ya. Stay tuned for future posts where I help your buddies at P4T with their math.

Actually nothing was deleted SPreston. All I did was take 911files.info offline because I was tired of dealing with online security issues and attacks. Boone870 was the first to notice, the same thing happened with AAL77.COM recently. It was php based as well and I had to convert it to html to get it back up. I simply decided to use JREF for commentary because it is professionally managed and secure. If there is any file you desire and cannot locate, let me know and I'll supply it for you.

Now how about answering my question from an earlier post.

In the image above, I did not define fully one aspect of the equation. You will observe that [latex]$$ \frac{S}{r} = \frac{at}{v} $$[/latex]. Why is this a true statement when [latex]$$ r_1 = r_2 $$[/latex] and [latex]$$ v_1 = v_2 $$[/latex]?
 
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corroborated witnesses while you hand wave off physical evidence ?

OK then address this

from http://911research.wtc7.net/pentagon/evidence/witnesses/sgydk.html

Steve Anderson

Shortly after watching the second tragedy, I heard jet engines pass our building, which, being so close to the airport is very common. But I thought the airport was closed. I figured it was a plane coming in for landing. A few moments later, as I was looking down at my desk, the plane caught my eye. It didn't register at first. I thought to myself that I couldn't believe the pilot was flying so low. Then it dawned on me what was about to happen. I watched in horror as the plane flew at treetop level, banked slightly to the left, drug it's wing along the ground and slammed into the west wall of the Pentagon exploding into a giant orange fireball. Then black smoke. Then white smoke.

Treetop level equates to the height of the Pentagon? Those are pretty tall trees. If it looked like it dragged its wing along the ground. well then it would have to pull up to clear the Pentagon for a flyover, You need to address this and address it NOW or concede.

Lt. Col. Stuart Artman


"I saw the plane that hit the Pentagon. It went behind some trees."

Behind the trees planted on the roof of the Pentagon?

David Battle

standing outside the Pentagon just about to enter

"It was coming down head first," he said. "And when the impact hit, the cars and everything were just shaking."


SPreston, maybe it flew UNDER the pentagon? how does a plane "coming down head first" avoid plowing into the Pentagon? Perhaps you can show us one of your animated gifs with this nose down pull up maneuver?
address this or concede.

Richard Benedetto

"I heard an airplane. A very loud airplane. ... I heard the airplane coming from behind me. ... So I looked up, and I saw this airplane coming, heading straight down toward the ground. It was an American Airlines airplane, I could see it very clearly. ... The plane went down and for a split second it was out of my line of vision because there was a bridge there and a hill. ... I didn't actually see the impact... I didn't see any flaps, it looked like the plane was just in a normal flying mode but heading straight down, sharply down. It was straight. No flopping. It was going pretty straight. ... The only thing we saw on the ground outside there was a piece of a - the tail of a lamp post."

A sharply down pull up? Gotcha.
Sean Boger

"I just looked up and I saw the big nose and the wings of the aircraft coming right at us and I just watched it hit the building. It exploded. I fell to the ground and covered my head. I could actually hear the metal going through the building."

He "watched it hit the building"

James R. Cissell

''Out of my peripheral vision, I saw this plane coming in and it was low - and getting lower. ''If you couldn't touch it from standing on the highway, you could by standing on your car.'' ''I thought, 'This isn't really happening. That is a big plane.' Then I saw the faces of some of the passengers on board,'' Cissell said. ''I remember thinking, 'The World Trade Center was just the beginning, there's going to be more.' '' He remembers the helipad the plane flew over before smacking into the Pentagon was close enough to him that ''I could have thrown a baseball at it and hit it.'' While he remembers seeing the crash, Cissell remembers none of the sounds. ''It came in in a perfectly straight line,'' he said. ''It didn't slow down. I want to say it accelerated. It just shot straight in.''

You could touch the plane by standing on your car as it pulled up over a seven story building? really?

Dennis Clem

"There was a commercial airliner that said American Airliners over the side of it flying at just above treetop height at full speed headed for the Pentagon."

Multiple choice question SPreston

Full Speed would be what?
A) 200 knots would be 370.4 kph (230.1 mph) (337.5 fps)
B) 250 knots would be 463 kph (287.7 mph) (421.9 fps)
C) 300 knots would be 555.6 kph (345.2 mph) (506.3 fps)
D) 464.9 knots (861 kph) (535 mph) (784.6 fps)

Dan Creed

"It was no more than 30 feet off the ground, and it was screaming. It was just screaming. It was nothing more than a guided missile at that point. I can still see the plane. I can still see it right now. It's just the most frightening thing in the world, going full speed, going full throttle, its wheels up."

Screaming at 230 mph SPreston?

Bobby Eberle​

We set out in the car and immediately turned on the news radio to follow what was happening in New York City. After fifteen minutes into our trip, a new report came over the radio stating that a second aircraft (another passenger airliner) had struck the World Trade Center. ... As we slowly crept along in traffic at about 9:30 am, we rounded a bend and had the Pentagon in our sites -- right in front of us. ... Riding in a convertable with the top down, I then heard a tremendously loud noise from behind me and to my left. I looked back and saw a jet airliner flying very low and very fast. It's amazing what can run through your mind in just a matter of seconds. As a pilot, I can't help but look at an airplane and think about airplane topics. What I saw sent a shiver down my spine as I realized something was not right. The aircraft was so very low -- as an aircraft would be on its final approach to an airport. However, if you have watched any aircraft come in for a landing, even though the aircraft is descending, it is angled up slightly. This aircraft was angled downward. In addition, landing gear would also be visible on a aircraft so low and so near landing. This aircraft had its landing gear retracted. Finally, an aircraft on final approach is traveling rather slowly. This aircraft sped by very loudly an very quickly. All of this flashed in my mind as the aircraft passed from behind my left shoulder to in front of me. It was then that the other events of the morning crystallized in the realization that tragedy was about to occur. With all of these images spinning in my head, the only words that came out of my mouth were "Oh no!" With that, the airliner crashed into the Pentagon and exploded.​

Another angled downward high speed "pull up"

Albert Hemphill

Having just witnessed the CNN coverage of New York" "with a head full of the horror in New York, I walked in the office and stood peering out of the window looking at the Pentagon. ... As I stood there, I instinctively ducked at the extremely loud roar and whine of a jet engine spooling up. Immediately, the large silver cylinder of an aircraft appeared in my window, coming over my right shoulder as I faced the Westside of the Pentagon directly towards the heliport. The aircraft, looking to be either a 757 or Airbus, seemed to come directly over the annex, as if it had been following Columbia Pike - an Arlington road leading to Pentagon. The aircraft was moving fast, at what I could only be estimate as between 250 to 300 knots. All in all, I probably only had the aircraft in my field of view for approximately 3 seconds. The aircraft was at a sharp downward angle of attack, on a direct course for the Pentagon. It was "clean", in as much as, there were no flaps applied and no apparent landing gear deployed. He was slightly left wing down as he appeared in my line of sight, as if he'd just "jinked" to avoid something. As he crossed Route 110 he appeared to level his wings, making a slight right wing slow adjustment as he impacted low on the Westside of the building to the right of the helo, tower and fire vehicle around corridor 5. What instantly followed was a large yellow fireball accompanied by an extremely bass sounding, deep thunderous boom. The yellow fireball rose quickly as black smoke engulfed the entire Westside of the Pentagon, obscuring the whole of the heliport. I could feel the concussion and felt the shockwave of the blast impact the window of the Annex, knocking me against the desk.
Sharp downward angle of a pull up??

Michael James

"The plane came over the top of us and brushed the trees. Then it looked like it hit the helicopter pad and skipped up and went right into the first and second floors."

looked like it Hit the helicopter pad and pulled up? over the Pentagon?

D.S. Khavkin

We were watching the events unfolding on TV in New York. Then, at about 9:40 am Eastern Daylight Time, my husband and I heard an aircraft directly overhead. At first, we thought it was the jets that sometimes fly overhead. However, it appeared to be a small commercial aircraft. The engine was at full throttle.
First, the plane knocked down a number of street lamp poles, then headed directly for the Pentagon and crashed on the lawn near the west side the Pentagon. A huge fireball exploded with thick black smoke."

Crashed on the lawn? thats some pretty special hollywood pull up effects SPreston.

Mary Lyman

"I was driving northbound to work in the District on I-395 when the Pentagon was hit. I actually saw the plane in front of me, coming in at a very steep angle toward the ground and going fast -- I think I actually heard it accelerate -- and then it disappeared and a cloud of smoke started billowing."

another steep angle toward the ground pull up??

David Marra

he saw an American Airlines jet swooping in, its wings wobbly, looking like it was going to slam right into the Pentagon: "It was 50 ft. off the deck when he came in. It sounded like the pilot had the throttle completely floored. The plane rolled left and then rolled right. Then he caught an edge of his wing on the ground." There is a helicopter pad right in front of the side of the Pentagon. The wing touched there, then the plane cartwheeled into the building.

It touched and cartwheeled right over the building to continue on and land at Reagan, isn't that correct SPreston?

Stephen McGraw

"The traffic was very slow moving, and at one point just about at a standstill." "I was in the left hand lane with my windows closed. I did not hear anything at all until the plane was just right above our cars." McGraw estimates that the plane passed about 20 feet over his car, as he waited in the left hand lane of the road, on the side closest to the Pentagon. "The plane clipped the top of a light pole just before it got to us, injuring a taxi driver, whose taxi was just a few feet away from my car. I saw it crash into the building," he said. "My only memories really were that it looked like a plane coming in for a landing. I mean in the sense that it was controlled and sort of straight. That was my impression," he said. "I hadn't heard about the World Trade Center at that point, and so I was thinking this was an accident. I figured it was just an accident. There was an explosion and a loud noise and I felt the impact. I remember seeing a fireball come out of two windows (of the Pentagon). I saw an explosion of fire billowing through those two windows."

At 20 foot over his car. then it pulled up?

Mitch Mitchell
Ret. Army Col

Just as we got even with the Pentagon, I looked out to the front and saw, coming straight down the road at us, a huge jet plane clearly with American Airlines written on it, and it looked like it was coming in to hit us. I told my wife, 'It's going to hit the Pentagon.' It crossed about 100 feet in front of us and at about 20 feet altitude and we watched it go in. It struck the Pentagon, and there was no indication whatever that it was doing anything other than performing a direct attack on that building. The landing gear was up. There were no flaps down and it looked like a deadly missile on the final phase of its mission into the building."
"We saw what I estimate to be about the last seven seconds of the flight. It was a straight-in flight, angled slightly down, and there was--there was no intent to turn or to maneuver in any way. It was headed straight for its target and we were helpless to do anything about it but watch."

How does the plane avoid crashing directly into the pentagon when none of the witness statements above describe any evasive maneuver?

I can keep going but I think we have blown CIT and PFT out of the water and exposed them and their fans for the lying frauds and fools they are.
 
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A minor point I'd like some clarification on.. when I explained the proposed flyover to my ex-father-in-law, who was a B-52 navigator in Vietnam with 55 missions to his credit, he kinda furrowed his brow and said "flying through an explosion like that would take big, round, hairy (rule10)s."

So, to you aeronautical types, what do you think? Could a plane fly through such a blast at maybe 100 feet without taking fatal damage?

Assuming for the sake of argument it could survive, there would be a difficulty in disguising the wingtip vortices, which would swirl the smoke from the explosion.

This is a link to a picture on NASA of an ag-plane flying over a smoke cannister.
An airliner pulling high gee would generate enormous vortices, because it's generating a lot of lift.


ETA: And it wouldn't really matter if the airplane had already gone by at the time the smoke was emitted. The vortices don't dissipate for several minutes. This is the main reason for the minimum time separation of heavy jets from lighter aircraft when taking off or landing.

No vortices in the smoke? No airplane went through there.
 
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No vortices in the smoke? No airplane went through there.

Outstanding point. I don't recall that being mentioned previously, but it is very, very valid. As if there is not enough already!:rolleyes:
 
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Outstanding point. I don't recall that being mentioned previously...

IIRC, R.Pickering, or another less crazy twoofer, posed this to Alldough,and Lyte of Brains, moons ago. Hand waving, followed by names like shill etc...
It was all they could muster, while doing the Forrest Gump, per usual!
 
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All of the criticisms of the video have been addressed here.
If anyone wishes to debate these issues you are welcome to join the discussion.

By the way, having wandered over to Pfft today, I can say that I really feel welcome there. Nice pinned threads threatening to out anyone who points out the outrageous flaws in their reasoning.

Could Cap'n Rob be any more of an incompetent thug?

Now get busy on the real math for the CIT flight path, boyos!
 
I thought I would go over the P4T arithmetic to verify their unit conversions and use of the equations.

p4tarith.jpg


I came up with the same values for bank angle, but slightly lower g-force values. I suspect it is in the conversion factors used. I used 6076.1 feet per nautical mile and 32.2 ft/s2 for g.

You are welcome Rob :)
 
Craig says:

"We no longer believe the plane was exactly over the impact point due to the ANC witnesses and Roosevelt Roberts' account."

Translation: we know that we can't calculate the path we claim, so now we change the path again.

Uh, and all that stuff about the Hollywood special effect? Yeah, forget about that.

And Boger? Yeah, forget about him too.

He's under the bus with Morin.

Giggle!
 
If he doesn't believe the plane flew over the impact spot, then he might want to change the graphic on his website.



274944955d02dd6832.gif
 
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This post is the next in an installment of posts addressing the P4T flight path mathematics and begins with this post. The first post defined centripetal acceleration as it is used by P4T in their calculation of bank angles and g-forces. This post expands and applies that concept into the vector components involved. I am using standard notation in this post, but it should be kept in mind that the notation applies to a vector and are differentials in one form or the other. Also, I am not familiar with vector notation in latex, so understand the notation is referring to a vector quantity.

banking1.jpg


The image above is a two-dimensional (x, z) for identifying the force vectors under discussion. It is important to understand that [latex]$$ F_L $$[/latex] (black arrow) represents lift, which is a function of [latex]$$ v_y $$[/latex] and [latex]$$ \sum F_y $$[/latex] which is not described here. As such, it is assumed (as in the P4T flight path) that [latex]$$ v_y $$[/latex] is constant and [latex]$$ \sum F_y = 0 $$[/latex].

Centripetal force ([latex]$$ F_c $$[/latex], red arrow) is the P4T favorite the past few months, so that is the place to start. [latex]$$ F_c $$[/latex] is not some magical force that comes out of nowhere and results in a circular flight path. Quite the contrary, it is the result of the flight path and the force has to come from somewhere. in this case, it is the [latex]$$ F_x $$[/latex] (blue arrow) component of [latex]$$ F_L $$[/latex]. Axis [latex]$$ z $$[/latex] is drawn parallel to the direction of the [latex]$$ F_c $$[/latex] vector, and [latex]$$ \theta $$[/latex] is the angle from [latex]$$ z $$[/latex] to the [latex]$$ F_L $$[/latex] vector.

[latex]$$ F_x = {F_L}sin{\theta} $$[/latex]

The component vector [latex]$$ F_x $$[/latex] must ALWAYS equal [latex]$$ F_c $$[/latex] or the path will not be circular. Also of interest is that the [latex]$$ F_z $$[/latex] (yellow arrow) component vector must ALWAYS be equal to and opposite of [latex]$$ F_g $$[/latex] (green arrow) if a horizontal path is to be maintained. This is the assumption of the P4T analysis which will become clear later.

[latex]$$ F_z = {F_L}cos{\theta} $$[/latex]

Since [latex]$$ F_z = m{a_z} $$[/latex] and [latex]$$ F_g = m{a_g} $$[/latex] and [latex]$$ m{a_z} = -m{a_g} $$[/latex], we can drop the mass quantity [latex]$$ m $$[/latex] and work directly with the acceleration vector.

Of course what P4T was wishing to determine was the bank angle [latex]$$ \theta $$[/latex]. The bank angle can be determined with the following equation based on the component vectors.

[latex]$$ tan{\theta} = \frac{a_x}{a_z} $$[/latex], or [latex]$$ {\theta} = {tan^{-1}}\left({\frac{a_x}{a_z}}\right) $$[/latex]

Since [latex]$$ a_x = a_c = \frac{v^2}{r} $$[/latex] and [latex]$$ a_z = -g $$[/latex],

[latex]$$ \theta = tan^{-1} \left({\frac {\left(\frac{v^2}{r}\right)}{-g}}}\right) $$[/latex]

Of course someone is going to scream, "that is not the equation they used!" I'm not going to do everything for P4T, so guys just plug in the conversion factors to make the equation specific to knots for [latex]$$ v $$[/latex] and feet for [latex]$$ r $$[/latex] see what you come up with. Also recall that g is in the negative direction, so the negative sign converts it to positive.

Now I went through all of this so that it becomes apparent to anyone paying attention that,

[latex] {F_L}sin{\theta} = m{\frac{v^2}{r}} $$[/latex] so,

[latex] {a_L}sin{\theta} = \frac{v^2}{r} $$[/latex]

In other words, the approach used by Mackey and I in rebuttal to P4T's previous venture regarding the official flight path being impossible was the correct approach. The isolation of the vertical component is a better estimate than the centripetal acceleration approach since neither [latex]$$ v $$[/latex] nor [latex]$$ r $$[/latex] could be considered constant. This is enough for this post, but next I will use components to do the same banking angle calculations with a diminishing altitude.
 
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I enjoy watching all you clever bods debating the maths and physics but I just feel that anyone who saw the first two hijacked passenger jets hit the twin towers and then feels that the third hijacked passenger jet did something completely different, and in an insane way, for no reason at all, except that it would satisfy some kooks from loonyland, is bonkers.

The whole idea is absurd. Why bother? What's the point? It's idiocy on a scale that really requires an intensive course of strong electroconvulsive therapy.

Bananaman.
 
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I enjoy watching all you clever bods debating the maths and physics but I just feel that anyone who saw the first two hijacked passenger jets hit the twin towers and then feels that the third hijacked passenger jet did something completely different, and in an insane way, for no reason at all, except that it would satisfy some kooks from loonyland, is bonkers.

The whole idea is absurd. Why bother? What's the point? It's idiocy on a scale that really requires an intensive course of strong electroconvulsive therapy.

Bananaman.

I do it just because I love math :) Ain't science fun?
 
Hi, 9/11 files. When I said 'why bother' etc, I wasn't referring to you, I was referring to the whole Pentagon flyover fantasy. I admire your maths very much. I barely scraped A level in the subject.

It's just frustration at the sheer stupidity of the ideas they're trying to back up with woolly science.

Bananaman.
 
Oh what I've posted so far ain't nothing. My degree is in mathematics and just wait until we get to the good stuff. Some good ole vector analysis with partial differentials thrown in just for fun! When you get change going in all three dimensions at the same time (much more realistic) the math gets to be fun and we sort out the men from the boys.
 
I thought I would go over the P4T arithmetic to verify their unit conversions and use of the equations.

[qimg]http://aal77.com/jref/p4tarith.jpg[/qimg]

I came up with the same values for bank angle, but slightly lower g-force values. I suspect it is in the conversion factors used. I used 6076.1 feet per nautical mile and 32.2 ft/s2 for g.

You are welcome Rob :)
Someone has brought to my attention that the boys at P4T may have cheated on #2. Independent measurements give the following results:

2 7025 70 2.7

At a radius of 7025 feet, the bank angle is 70 degrees with g's reaching 2.7. Interesting.

Update: I measured the sagitta in Google Earth using Paik's shop, the point Lagassee said he saw the plane and the impact point. I come up with a radius of ~4000 feet! Some of you folks might want to try it and see what you come up with.
 
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Someone has brought to my attention that the boys at P4T may have cheated on #2. Independent measurements give the following results:

2 7025 70 2.7

At a radius of 7025 feet, the bank angle is 70 degrees with g's reaching 2.7. Interesting.

This is from a complete non-physicist non-flier.

Does the forward thrust of the airplane reduce the effect of the g-force when turning or does it have no effect? You can include math because I understand some of it and can look up the rest pretty easily.

Edit: I mean acceleration as well as thrust. Help us out with the airspeed. I think the aircraft was accelerating during descent but I am not certain about that. Perhaps you are better equipped.
 
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This is from a complete non-physicist non-flier.

Does the forward thrust of the airplane reduce the effect of the g-force when turning or does it have no effect? You can include math because I understand some of it and can look up the rest pretty easily.

Edit: I mean acceleration as well as thrust. Help us out with the airspeed. I think the aircraft was accelerating during descent but I am not certain about that. Perhaps you are better equipped.
Well, it is going to increase the velocity and lift, so yes it will increase the g-load. I am developing this one step at a time so I don't lose the boys at P4T who seem to have no clue regarding vector dynamics. Let me finish up with the two dimensional discussion for z and x first, then jump into the y stuff you are asking about.

You are on solid ground thinking that. This post covers that very thing.
 
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Still have not consulted with Reheat?

911files said:
Oh what I've posted so far ain't nothing. My degree is in mathematics and just wait until we get to the good stuff. Some good ole vector analysis with partial differentials thrown in just for fun! When you get change going in all three dimensions at the same time (much more realistic) the math gets to be fun and we sort out the men from the boys.

Why don't you check the pdf linked below . . . its the same formula Reheat used and the same formula Pilots for 9/11 Truth used . . . all based on "Newtonian Physics" but tailored for aircraft maneuverability.

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index....&p=10761304

Or here
 

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