Israeli blockade 'forces Palestinians to search rubbish dumps for food'

No, that can't be right. BirdStrike has assured us that Gazans voted for Hamas because they are evil and wish to destroy Israel and thus must be punished.

Once again. Another strawman. In a long line of strawmen. I know what I posted and it was this:

Hamas didn't just drop out of a gumdrop tree one day with welfare, schools, and nurseries. Hamas has been around for over a decade, sending suicide bombers. When Hamas did end up building schools, and nurseries after years of terrorism, it did so to manipulate people to support their military actions.

For nearly a decade, Hamas's political platform has been no secret. With Hamas there is no acceptance of coexistence, there is no support for the idea of two states living side by side in peace. Hamas has an exclusive demand, based on fundamentalist interpretations of religious texts.

...and this:

The people spoke. Democracy in action. Now the Gazans and Hamas have to take responsibility for their choices. I don't think I am being unreasonable.

No where do I say "Gazans are evil." You said that gdnp. :rolleyes:

Now to the "corruption" baloney. Hamas is as corrupt as hell! Man did the Palestinians get hookwinked with that line of crap!

BBC Aug 2007

The EU cut off funding last Thursday because of concerns over plans by the Islamist group Hamas, which controls Gaza, to tax electricity bills.

Hamas was going to tax poverty-laden Gazans for electricity Hamas didn't even pay for!

BBC Aug 2007

Earlier, the former Palestinian prime minister, Ismail Haniya of Hamas, said the decision to withdraw funding amounted to collective punishment for the people of Gaza.

Hey guys, Ismail Haniya of Hamas used your favorite sound bite! You know the one that doesn't deal with what Hamas is doing, and instead uses the people of Gaza as propaganda pawns.

aljazeera Aug 2007

Riyad al-Malki, information minister in the Ramallah-based government set up by the Mahmoud Abbbas, the president, after he dismissed the Hamas-majority cabinet, said Hamas was to blame for the blackouts.

"We warned for weeks that Gaza would fall into darkness if Hamas does not stop occupying the electricity company and does not stop holding on to millions of shekels that they collected from the people of Gaza," he said.

So not only is Hamas stealing international aid and fuel, the so-called un-corrupt Hamas was ALSO taxing the poverty-stricken people of Gaza on fuel that the EU payed for!

Hamas is corrupt as hell.
 
So not only is Hamas stealing international aid and fuel, the so-called un-corrupt Hamas was ALSO taxing the poverty-stricken people of Gaza on fuel that the EU payed for!

Hamas is corrupt as hell.
*wipes tear from eye*

How gratifying that "our little boy" is all growed up. Hamas acts like a real government now. I wonder if they read any of Huey Long's books on good governance ...

DR
 
The difference is the degree to which they are prepared to prosecute the war against Israel and the vigour with which they pursue it.

Certainly at this point the PLO is more willing to negotiate with Israel than Hamas. But there is an old expression that all politics is local. The PLO was widely known to be highly corrupt, and Hamas was the viable opposition.

I faced a similar situation (absent the terrorism) in New Jersey this year. The Democratic leadership in Bergen County where I live is corrupt, so I voted for the Republican candidates for county government. I did this reluctantly because I disagree with the Republicans on many policy issues, but corruption trumped them all.
 
I faced a similar situation (absent the terrorism) in New Jersey this year. The Democratic leadership in Bergen County where I live is corrupt, so I voted for the Republican candidates for county government. I did this reluctantly because I disagree with the Republicans on many policy issues, but corruption trumped them all.
Hobson's choice is sometimes like no choice at all. :(

In other news, it appears that the cycle continues.

Merry Christmas, Holy Land.
 
Hamas was going to tax poverty-laden Gazans for electricity Hamas didn't even pay for!

Wow. The US governement has placed a tax on tobacco that they didn't grow. They are taxing income that they didn't earn.

Do you not realize how ridiculous your argument is?
 
Wow. The US governement has placed a tax on tobacco that they didn't grow. They are taxing income that they didn't earn.

Do you not realize how ridiculous your argument is?

So you are defending Hamas taxing poverty-stricken Gazans for electricity and fuel paid for buy the EU.

You did this by deflecting the issue and saying "Well gee... America taxes tobacco too."

Man, if that is not being an apologist for Hamas I dunno what is. Really I don't.

FYI genius, America and many other countries place a tax on tobacco to counter the medical costs smoking creates,and to dissuade people from smoking, by placing high taxes on a dangerous product.
 
*wipes tear from eye*

How gratifying that "our little boy" is all growed up. Hamas acts like a real government now. I wonder if they read any of Huey Long's books on good governance ...

DR


Ya... to hear the line that "Hamas is not corrupt" while it steals food and fuel aid... and then taxes Gazans for what Hamas didn't steal, or pay for.... what a line people bought, hook, line, and sinker. ;)
 
That's sounds like the paranoid mindset of Skeptic who thinks everyone's out to get Jews.

Is it not true? Is there not a massacre of Jews, somewhere on Earth, around once every 50 years?

And by the way, if Israel wants ALL of Palestine, why did they just spend billions of dollars building a huge concrete wall and fence, that seperates Israel from almost 85% of the West Bank?

Maybe its a CGI wall? Computer fakery? The No-Wall Theory? (NWT) Hee Hee.

Your theories...and the facts on the ground..simply do not jive...my friend.
 
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So you are defending Hamas taxing poverty-stricken Gazans for electricity and fuel paid for buy the EU.
I am not defending them: I am just stating that taxing commerce is one of the things that governments do. It is not inherently corrupt.

I'm going to go out on a limb here, since I don't know the answer to this question. The fuel to run Gaza's power plant came from the E.U., correct? Who pays the workers there? Who pays the other operating costs? Who maintains the power lines? I'm guessing that this may be Hamas. If so, is it reasonable to tax the electricity users to pay these costs? Yes or no?

You did this by deflecting the issue and saying "Well gee... America taxes tobacco too."
Only to point out that if America taxes poor citizens that use tobacco and we do not call this evidence of government corruption then Hamas taxing electricity generated from oil they did not buy is not evidence of government corruption either.

Man, if that is not being an apologist for Hamas I dunno what is. Really I don't.
I'll just add that to the list of things you don't know, then.

FYI genius, America and many other countries place a tax on tobacco to counter the medical costs smoking creates,and to dissuade people from smoking, by placing high taxes on a dangerous product.
I suppose they place a tax on income in order to dissuade people from working as well.

Your understanding of tax policy clearly equals your understanding of middle eastern politics.

Let's take a look at my electric bill...Oh look, it has this descriptive line:

Government Surcharges (O&R only) include New Jersey State and local taxes, such as state income tax, the Gross Receipts Tax, and local and village taxes, where applicable.

Huh. It seems in the US the corrupt governments place taxes on electricity that they didn't pay for. Maybe we should blockade New Jersey as well.
 
I am not defending them: I am just stating that taxing commerce is one of the things that governments do. It is not inherently corrupt.

It is corrupt when you are stealing aid and then taxing people on the remaining aid you didn't steal or pay for.

I'm going to go out on a limb here, since I don't know the answer to this question. The fuel to run Gaza's power plant came from the E.U., correct? Who pays the workers there? Who pays the other operating costs? Who maintains the power lines? I'm guessing that this may be Hamas. If so, is it reasonable to tax the electricity users to pay these costs? Yes or no?

Your guess is 100% wrong. Therefore you question is irrelevant. The Palestine Electric Company (PEC) and it's shareholders own the power plant. Not Hamas. Hamas steals from the Palestine Electric Company.

That is why debating you is pointless. You have everything all figured out, but your position is based solely on ignorance.
 
67% of the shares of the company are owned by prominent Palestinian and Arab operating companies and institutional investors (PEC PLC), and the public owns the remaining 33% of the shares of the company.

PEC operates under the mandate of being the sole provider of electricity to the Gaza Strip through an Implementation Agreement with the Palestinian National Authority and a Purchase Agreement with the Palestinian Energy Authority.

http://www.ameinfo.com/financial_markets/Palestine/Company_PS0025/
 
what?
i dont think that is the case.

Here in Basel for example Jews can live very peacefully, stleast thats what i thought, they have a relative big community here , a very nice synagoge.

I think the times changed alot.
So why did it take 60 years for Swiss banks to even go through the motions to give back the assets taken from Jews by the Nazis in WWII? What didn't the Swiss government rectfy that situation long ago? Indeed, why was it allowed to happen in the first place?
 
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I faced a similar situation (absent the terrorism) in New Jersey this year. The Democratic leadership in Bergen County where I live is corrupt, so I voted for the Republican candidates for county government. I did this reluctantly because I disagree with the Republicans on many policy issues, but corruption trumped them all.
Would you have voted for them if all the members of the GOP were also members of hate groups such as the KKK, Aryan Nation, or other neo-nazi groups?
 
It is corrupt when you are stealing aid and then taxing people on the remaining aid you didn't steal or pay for.
Oh, I see. Fuel is donated to the electric company, who use it to generate electricity, and then the electric company gives it away for free. In that case, taxing the electricity, although not illegal, is immoral in my opinion. Is this the case? Is the power company giving away the electricity?

Your guess is 100% wrong. Therefore you question is irrelevant. The Palestine Electric Company (PEC) and it's shareholders own the power plant. Not Hamas. Hamas steals from the Palestine Electric Company.
Why thank you for this information. I assume they also own and maintain 100% of the transmission lines, since this was what I asked.

That is why debating you is pointless. You have everything all figured out, but your position is based solely on ignorance.
Really? I was basing my positions to some degree on information supplied by you.
 
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Nobody seems to be answering my question: most of the thread becomes a discussion of exactly how many Palestinians support Hamas. Whatever the answer, I fail to see how that has any relevance to the moral, or legal, legitimacy of Israel's attempted actions.

Let us agree that Hamas is not supported by all Palestinians, though it has much support -- as Hitler was not supported by all Germans, though he had much support. When Nazi Germany was, on Hitler's orders, bombing Britian with rockets and bombers -- as Hamas is doing to Israel -- with the expressed goal of destroying Britian -- as Hamas says it will do to Israel-- it was hardly a "human rights violation" on Britian's part to blockade German ports if it could, even if it hurt ordinary Germans in the process, and even if not all those hurt were Nazi party members or high government officials in the German Fuhrer state.

Please explain to me why this was legitimate, and that it was absurd to suggest Britian supply Nazi Germany with food, electricity, etc. as it was bombed by it at the same time -- while on the other hand, may not blockade, and indeed must supply food, gas, etc., to a terrorist entity that daily bombs its cities.

I'd say that if, as some people here do, one has a "moral" position where one claims a country daily bombed by another must still supply the country which bombs it with food, water, electricity, etc., then one's moral position needs serious revision, as it leads to obviously absurd conclusions.

In any rate, until such revision is made, it is hardly worth while listening to any "moral arguments" made by someone with such a position, much like there's little point in looking at a stopped watch to get the exact time.
 
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Nobody seems to be answering my question: most of the thread becomes a discussion of exactly how many Palestinians support Hamas. Whatever the answer, I fail to see how that has any relevance to the moral, or legal, legitimacy of Israel's attempted actions.

Let us agree that Hamas is not supported by all Palestinians, though it has much support -- as Hitler was not supported by all Germans, though he had much support. When Nazi Germany was, on Hitler's orders, bombing Britian with rockets and bombers -- as Hamas is doing to Israel -- with the expressed goal of destroying Britian -- as Hamas says it will do to Israel-- it was hardly a "human rights violation" on Britian's part to blockade German ports if it could, even if it hurt ordinary Germans in the process, and even if not all those hurt were Nazi party members or high government officials in the German Fuhrer state.

Please explain to me why this was legitimate, and that it was absurd to suggest Britian supply Nazi Germany with food, electricity, etc. as it was bombed by it at the same time -- while on the other hand, may not blockade, and indeed must supply food, gas, etc., to a terrorist entity that daily bombs its cities.

I'd say that if, as some people here do, one has a "moral" position where one claims a country daily bombed by another must still supply the country which bombs it with food, water, electricity, etc., then one's moral position needs serious revision, as it leads to obviously absurd conclusions.

In any rate, until such revision is made, it is hardly worth while listening to any "moral arguments" made by someone with such a position, much like there's little point in looking at a stopped watch to get the exact time.

Your analogy would be valid if Israel and Gaza were two countries in a state of war. I think a more valid analogy would be occupied France during World War II. Could the Germans legitimately cut off food to the civilian population because the partisans continued to fight?

Israel and Gaza are not fighting a war. The war ended. Israel won and became the occupying power in Gaza. Although they have withdrawn their troops from the territory, they still control the borders and the airspace, which in my mind makes them the occupying power and responsible for the civilian population.
 
So why did it take 60 years for Swiss banks to even go through the motions to give back the assets taken from Jews by the Nazis in WWII? What didn't the Swiss government rectfy that situation long ago? Indeed, why was it allowed to happen in the first place?

Becuse we swiss people hate jewish people?

or maybe because of greedy banks?

my country played a dirty role in WWII. Especially Swiss banks.
its a shame we turned away 10 000's of jews at our borders while we let them deposit their money on our banks.
It took 30 years till there was some investigation and repayment. and 20 years after that it was only thanks to a swiss guy that went public after he found out that the banks are destroying the documents from unnacounted bank accounts.

But i think it has more to do with greedy banks than with antisemite swiss banks.
 
Here's a tip: Grow up.
Here's a tip. Most of us don't like terrorists - or people who support, hide, arm, feed, etc. them. In my, never humble, opinion such people deserve opprobrium and/or to have fun made of them according to my whim at the time.:D
 
Becuse we swiss people hate jewish people?

or maybe because of greedy banks?

my country played a dirty role in WWII. Especially Swiss banks.
its a shame we turned away 10 000's of jews at our borders while we let them deposit their money on our banks.
It took 30 years till there was some investigation and repayment. and 20 years after that it was only thanks to a swiss guy that went public after he found out that the banks are destroying the documents from unnacounted bank accounts.

But i think it has more to do with greedy banks than with antisemite swiss banks.
Can't just be greedy banks. The Swiss government regulates the banks, they could have passed laws to prevent this sort of thing. Likewise, the Swiss government could have passed laws which prevent Swiss bankers becoming the money launderer of choice for dictators and despots the world over. Arafat had quite a fat Swiss bank account when he died, all of which he skimmed from aid to Palestinian civilians.

The Swiss are more responsible for the current state of the Palestinians than the Israelis are.

I wonder how much cash Hamas has stashed away in Swiss banks?
 
Can't just be greedy banks. The Swiss government regulates the banks, they could have passed laws to prevent this sort of thing. Likewise, the Swiss government could have passed laws which prevent Swiss bankers becoming the money launderer of choice for dictators and despots the world over. Arafat had quite a fat Swiss bank account when he died, all of which he skimmed from aid to Palestinian civilians.

The Swiss are more responsible for the current state of the Palestinians than the Israelis are.

I wonder how much cash Hamas has stashed away in Swiss banks?

:rolleyes:
 

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