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Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

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You're entitled to your opinion, but I'll be happy if people read at least half of my 319 posts in here and they can judge for themselves.

And if I was really driving people towards atheism, atheists would be glad and treat me nicer. I wouldn't say your post is treating me nice.

Why would we care if people were "driven towards atheism"? Who would we make fun of then? Sure, it would be nice to live in a less primitive, demon-haunted world-- But I don't think most atheists have an interest in "recruiting" for atheism any more than non-Scientologists have an interest in recruiting for non-Scientology.

Besides, it's the words you use when you are provoked that make theism look unsavory-- particularly your fundamentalist brand. That, and Fred Phelps.
 
You're entitled to your opinion, but I'll be happy if people read at least half of my 319 posts in here and they can judge for themselves.
It isn't an opinion, it is a proven fact, as much fact as anything is possible. You are liar with no credibility.
And if I was really driving people towards atheism, atheists would be glad and treat me nicer. I wouldn't say your post is treating me nice.
Why should I be nice to a liar?
 
You and others are entitled to your opinions. But like I said, I'll be happy if people with an open mind read at least half of my posts.
I agree. I hope people do read your posts with an open mind. It's why I will always highlight the errors in your arguments. It's my "faith" that reason will win minds. So, please, continue to post here DOC and I will continue to reply.
 
You and others are entitled to your opinions. But like I said, I'll be happy if people with an open mind read at least half of my posts.

I have an open mind and i've read all your posts, but i'm still waiting for provable evidence. Not the "it says, they say, you say" based on faith only explanations.

You haven't gone beyond the OP as evidence because your hope is for those to accept it as evidence through belief, yet no matter how many times you present it this way, you're right back to post #1.
 
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I think DOC has given perfectly good evidence for how he knows the New Testament Writers told the truth... in fact, the evidence should work on anyone who has already been indoctrinated with the story, believes that they'll go to heaven for "believing in" the story, and fear that they'll go to heaven if they don't. (Unless they take the time to read the responses, of course.)

I don't think the evidence is likely to work for a worshiper of any other gods or texts or any freethinker because it blows mightily.
 
Joobz - apologies - I have been offline a couple of days, apart from 5 minutes yesterday, and hence have not responded before.

I know that coronations are possible events. We have multiple examples of such events. I also know that She was Queen. Hence, it is not hard to believe that she had a coronation.

Yep. And we know that the ideas we find in the Gospels - miraculous healings, exorcisms, messianic expectations, etc, etc, are in line with the cultural millieu of the time. If a modern biography includes a UFO sighting, we would not be surprised at all. Therefore I see no reason to assume the writers of the NT did not record the truth as they understood it? Of course this can not be shown - in some cases they are clearly placing an extremely theological spin on what they have heard, and shaping the narraitve for their own aims. And exactly the same is true of say Sir Phillip Spencer on Elizabeth? :)



We have no evidence of a resurrection except for hear say accounts. Since the advent of modern medicine, we have not witnessed the ressurrection of a deceased body returning to life.
HOWEVER, We have evidence of people regaining consiousness after appearing to be dead (but not actually being dead).

Yep, agreed. We are very familair with resuscitation - but by definition a resucistated person is not dead. The Resurrection described in the gospels is clearly NOT resuscitation - I think we agree here. It is something far stranger - the risen Jesus passes through locked doors, appears and disappears, and seemingly is at times hard to recognise - yet is corporeal in some sense, and identifiably the same person. None of this makes much sense from my experience - well maybe more to me than to some folks, but I am of course drawing on my knowledge of psychical research here there are cases recounted which sort of parallel elements -- yet the authors of the gospels are at pains to deny the "ghost" hypothesis.

I actually find this very strangeness compelling, as I do the complete lack of agreement of the Easter narratives. I know a bit about 1st century burial customs, and ghost beliefs, but then as now competing ideas and belief systems mean we can not really say to what extent the accounts differ from the contemporary folklore of such matters - I simpl can't work out what the contemporary folklore was. However a homogenous agreed account would I think be far more suspect than the rather garbled and mysterious accounts we do possess. I have a strong suspicion that John may reflect a very early source here, but I do think that many of my fellow believers have not even noticed just how weird it all actually is. I'd actually really enjoy a full discussion of the Resurrectiona ccounts - maybe at Easter? - as there are a number of misconceptions and myths about the actual practices of the time and the implications of what is written in the Gospel and Pauline accounts.

Still, as I remarked before, the Christian claim is that this was a one time supernatural event, of a type not found before or since - the actual climatic intervention of God in human history. We don't see that every day - but the resurrection must be considered as a historical claim, NOT a scientific one - because we can not hope to experiment, replicate or make predictions based upon it. In this sense I refer to my Tunguska 1908 example, or say the assasination of JFK. What happened? I can no more say than I can tell you what happened on 22nd November 1963 - but I can look at the evidence, and make a considered case. The difference here is that the faith claim of my religion is that the usual laws simply did not apply.



Even if the hearsay accounts were reliable, it is impossible for me to believe that these people would be able to recognize the differences that modern medicine has made obvious.

Yes, but the accounts of the resurrection appearances appear logically inconsistent with resuscitation anyway for reasons outlined above. If Jesus did survive the cross, his subsequent actions are rather bizarre anyway - someone who courted death in the way he did would hardly slink off in to obscurity?



Simply because the story is supposed to be incredible doesn't mean that it gets a free pass from reason. I also don't believe Bhudda floated on a lotus leaf nor do I believe that Joeseph smith received gold tablets from an angel or that achillies was dipped in the river styx....

Agreed.



But we have evidence that the exposion occured and we know that explosions are possible.

We have evidence a whole bunch of people thought a Jewish carpenter had risen from the grave...

I'm not asking for a mechanistic proof that the ressurection occured, only that it could occur.

I have no way of telling that one way of another. My lack of omniscience severely hampers me! :)

cj x
 
I
Oh i know, but I thought we'd try and make this thread interesting again.

If Atheism is true, which version of atheism is closer to the truth?

Well, I think by it's very stance, it'd have to be strong atheism.

Afterall, you would know that there is no god, and strong atheism says that there is no god. however, Weak atheism says that there is no evidence for a god and therefore we assume there is none.

Once the evidence for "no god" is confirmed, weak atheism becomes meaningless.

Now, of course, this is merely a product of the premise of the question and not a function of reality. In reality, it is impossible to know conclusively that there is no god as you can't prove a negative.

I'll wait for DOC to see if he can recognize the correlation of this argument to the one he attempted to make.

Yes. I don't think it is really possible to assume something for the sake of argument that you think is extremely unlikely. I can attenpt to assume for the sake of argument that Sky Daddy actually exists, or that I am really 3 inches tall, but it doesn't work. If there were a dozen distinct flavors of atheism, Doc would be unable to pick one.

There are different types of atheists, we all know "spiritual atheists", for example, who don't believe in Sky Daddy but subscribe to other woo. The semantics don't change the point, though. I don't think we need to argue which designations can be considered official here. And Doc, I am a strong atheist.
 
Still, as I remarked before, the Christian claim is that this was a one time supernatural event, of a type not found before or since - the actual climatic intervention of God in human history.


Are you considering a resurrection as something other than simply being raised from the dead? I thought Lazarus was resurrected as well in John, and Herod clearly thought resurrection was at least plausible, as he at first thought Jesus was John the Baptist resurrected.
 
Are you considering a resurrection as something other than simply being raised from the dead? I thought Lazarus was resurrected as well in John, and Herod clearly thought resurrection was at least plausible, as he at first thought Jesus was John the Baptist resurrected.


Yes, there is a difference, though it is theological really. I asked the same question myself, (actually as an attack on Christianity as it happens) and wrote quite an essay on it, and had some interesting replies, but none arguing the position I would take...

I'll explain what is meant by Resurrection, and Raised from the Dead

There are actually several raised from the dead stories in the Gospels. Lazarus you mention, Jairus' daughter and i can't recall if the Centurions daughter is a separate incident? In each of these cases

* the person has died (through natural causes)
* the person is healed directly by Jesus
* the person is restored to full normal life
* the person is presumed to die normally later

The Resurrection, as I hope I have indicated above, is a whole different matter. The Risen Lord according to Paul has a resurrection body (Corinthians 15:30-ish without looking it up?) which is as different from the physical body he had as the moon from the sun (or chalk from cheese). Yet it is still physical - early church theology argues its more physical, in some mysterious sense as I recall. He eats, can be felt - yet he moves in to sealed rooms, and does all kinds of other spooky and physically impossible things.

So why the difference? Paul clearly thinks there is one - he refers to Jesus as the first of those raised from the dead as I recall. This is actually simply rooted in Jewish eschatology, and the notion that the dead will be physically resurrected at the Judgement, and idea that is found in Christianity as well. The Resurrection bodies will not be zombies, raised from the grave (and isn't there some stuff in Matthew about tombs opening, and then a considerable time later the dead rising from said graves and wandering around Jerusalem during the Passion anyway?) but new creations, yet spawned from the originals in some sense. Paul goes on about this a lot in Corinthians - it's part of his First Adam, Second Adam explanation of Christ. So Jesus is the first example of Resurrection in the final end of history sense - he is the first to be raised permanently from the dead (note of course that Elijah, Ezekiel, and Moses in some traditions were believed to have been caugfht up to Heaven and not died anyway?) and by his Resurrection defeats death and allows us all that chance.

So to Pual the Resurrection is very much distinct from being raised from the dead - and given the bizarre circumatances of the resurrection appearances given by the gospel writers, I suspect the same was true of them. There is a qualitative difference: one is "dead guy wakes up", resuscitated in effect, like someone brought back by modern medical intervention - though four days is beyond any case i know of, but the figure cited for Lazarus as i recall - anyway the second presages a supernatural event which is believed to happen in the future, the General Resurrection.

I'm nowhere near my books at the moment, and half asleep (and slightly distracted) so I'll leave it till I have more time here, but I am far from certain people being raised from the dead in the first sense was considered that unreasonable in the period. I'll check out my sources on the Hellenistic world when I get a chance - Daniel Ogden is usually excellent on thsi sort of thing. Note that notions of afterlife and Resurrection are hotly disputed at the time - as I recall one of the major thinsg we are told about the Saduceees was they denied this future state, though if that was actually part of their beliefs or not is pretty contentious. The Pharisees get a very unfair press in the gospels compared to what I understand of them after all

Anyway interesting to chat as always. I need sleep!
cj x
 
Your welcome to read my 319 posts. You might start with post #1. If you don't know what my and answers.com definition of evidence is you can read post 13. And if you read all of my posts you would know that this is the response you would get. So the fact you made your post tells me you either haven't read most of the posts in here or you are a troll.

I've read all of your posts in this thread
 
You're entitled to your opinion, but I'll be happy if people read at least half of my 319 posts in here and they can judge for themselves.
I've read this entire thread - I've lurked it from the beginning, made the occasional observation. I haven't seen you present any kind of credible or reliable evidence. None that would stand up in a court of law, none that would stand up in a peer-reviewed scientific journal. But I'm nice enough that I won't call you a liar. You're just misinformed, and you're stubborn. Incredibly stubborn.
 
The Resurrection, as I hope I have indicated above, is a whole different matter. The Risen Lord according to Paul has a resurrection body (Corinthians 15:30-ish without looking it up?)

1 Corinthians 15:35-58?

The Resurrection Body

35But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

37And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

38But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

39All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

40There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

41There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.


Or, in other words:
It'll all be really, fantastically, incredibly wooey! Believe me!

which is as different from the physical body he had as the moon from the sun (or chalk from cheese). Yet it is still physical - early church theology argues its more physical, in some mysterious sense as I recall. He eats, can be felt - yet he moves in to sealed rooms, and does all kinds of other spooky and physically impossible things.
When JC got topped, were there mushrooms to be had?
So why the difference? Paul clearly thinks there is one - he refers to Jesus as the first of those raised from the dead as I recall.
Paul would have found it a hard act to sell without some gimmick... seems to have worked though!

This is actually simply rooted in Jewish eschatology, and the notion that the dead will be physically resurrected at the Judgement, and idea that is found in Christianity as well.
Today we call it spin... or is it hype?

The Resurrection bodies will not be zombies, raised from the grave (and isn't there some stuff in Matthew about tombs opening, and then a considerable time later the dead rising from said graves and wandering around Jerusalem during the Passion anyway?) but new creations, yet spawned from the originals in some sense.
Yeah, makes sense; pitching a zombie trip would have gone down like a bucket of cold sick

Paul goes on about this a lot in Corinthians - it's part of his First Adam, Second Adam explanation of Christ. So Jesus is the first example of Resurrection in the final end of history sense - he is the first to be raised permanently from the dead (note of course that Elijah, Ezekiel, and Moses in some traditions were believed to have been caugfht up to Heaven and not died anyway?) and by his Resurrection defeats death and allows us all that chance.
cj, this is all fantastically fascinating... but... it's incredible, literally...

I know this train-wreck of a thread got tossed out of R&P and bunged into HL&tAs... but... but... this is still a critical thinking forum...

If any of this woo-affirming woo has any relevance to reality, please do explain how

Thanks

Anyway interesting to chat as always.
True :)

I need sleep!cj x
I sincerely hope you have woken up refreshed
 
I agree. I hope people do read your posts with an open mind. It's why I will always highlight the errors in your arguments. It's my "faith" that reason will win minds. So, please, continue to post here DOC and I will continue to reply.

Now you've done it! You said "faith." You've opened yourself up to all kinds of accusations of "I knew atheism was just another kind of faith!"

cj.23 said:
Therefore I see no reason to assume the writers of the NT did not record the truth as they understood it?

cj.23, many posters in this thread have agreed that the writers of the NT believed they were telling the truth. Our difficulty is that the OP promised "evidence that the writers of the NT told the truth." Any number of people might believe any number of things, but the aggregation of believers is not evidence, and is no indicator of truth.
 
Joobz - apologies - I have been offline a couple of days, apart from 5 minutes yesterday, and hence have not responded before.
No apologies needed. I enjoy your posts.



Yep. And we know that the ideas we find in the Gospels - miraculous healings, exorcisms, messianic expectations, etc, etc, are in line with the cultural millieu of the time. If a modern biography includes a UFO sighting, we would not be surprised at all. Therefore I see no reason to assume the writers of the NT did not record the truth as they understood it? Of course this can not be shown - in some cases they are clearly placing an extremely theological spin on what they have heard, and shaping the narraitve for their own aims. And exactly the same is true of say Sir Phillip Spencer on Elizabeth? :)
But I do not speak of truth as they see it but truth as it is. I am certain they believed what they wrote is true.




Still, as I remarked before, the Christian claim is that this was a one time supernatural event, of a type not found before or since - the actual climatic intervention of God in human history. We don't see that every day - but the resurrection must be considered as a historical claim, NOT a scientific one - because we can not hope to experiment, replicate or make predictions based upon it. In this sense I refer to my Tunguska 1908 example, or say the assasination of JFK. What happened? I can no more say than I can tell you what happened on 22nd November 1963 - but I can look at the evidence, and make a considered case. The difference here is that the faith claim of my religion is that the usual laws simply did not apply.
but it wasn't a one time event. I read your explanation regarding a difference between "raised from the dead" and "ressurection". and found it a bit too much like angels and headpins.

We have no evidence for raising from the dead or ressurections, so any argument on thier difference is rather academic. If you can show that either event is possible, then I'd be willing to consider the other posisble.
 
cj.23, many posters in this thread have agreed that the writers of the NT believed they were telling the truth. Our difficulty is that the OP promised "evidence that the writers of the NT told the truth." Any number of people might believe any number of things, but the aggregation of believers is not evidence, and is no indicator of truth.

Right, and I have said so myself. If the authors believed they told the truth, one can ask the not unreasonable question "what on earth made them believe all this?" Now the issue becomes the transmission of the stories - we call them pericope, for each little story, from the word for beads - to the final Gospel copy. Was that a reliable process?

You actually go a little further than me. I would not outright reject the possibility of lying. If I open The Book of Mormon I find a number of witnesses to Joseph Smith's story of the Golden Plates, yet some of those witnesses subsequently left the church. The golden plates story makes no sense to me (and I am clearly not a Latter Day Saint) so I must assume

a) Smith pulled a fast one on them - but how?
b) They lied. This would seem the most likely option to me, but why hold to the testimony later after leaving the new Church?
c) The Golden Plates were hallucinated in some way
d) The golden Plates were real, and taken by an angel

I actually doubt all these options - so I remain cautiously open minded. There may be another solution.

So it is far from impossible that the original Gospel stories contain fiction, outright lies, or metaphor later understood as fact. Yet having studied the issue for twenty odd years, I am pretty certain that the authors actually were trying to tell the truth as they believed it (for reasons I will cheerfully explain if anyone interested.)

Now it gets more complex -- what is the relationship between their perception of the truth, and the actual objective facts of events in 1st century Judea? This as i may have suggested a few times in this thread is a historical question, exactly the same as every other historical question. I look at the reliability of the sources, and surviving documentary evidence, and how it fits in the belief structures of the time. In short we try to work out the "spin" of the sources - and we find ourselves in exactly the same position as trying to understand the causes of say the Jewish Revolt, or the course of the Battle of Actium, or the death of Virgil. We will never be able to test absolutely the veracity of our sources, or view those events personally - so we make a critical judgment - all that differs from a historian ot a peddlar of woo is how well they understand the sources, and the context, and so th relative weight we place on their judgements.

I suspect what DOC intends is to defend the simple claim you state - that the Gospel authors wrote what they believed to be true - because ti si very hard to say more of any person, writing ever - indeed the same applies to my writiing now. Still it's always fun to discuss -- and I must go get some food, and think about opening my presents!

Merry Christmas or Merry Festivus and Merry whatever else you choose to cleeberate in the next few days! :)

cj x
 
Right, and I have said so myself. If the authors believed they told the truth, one can ask the not unreasonable question "what on earth made them believe all this?" Now the issue becomes the transmission of the stories - we call them pericope, for each little story, from the word for beads - to the final Gospel copy. Was that a reliable process?

You actually go a little further than me. I would not outright reject the possibility of lying. If I open The Book of Mormon I find a number of witnesses to Joseph Smith's story of the Golden Plates, yet some of those witnesses subsequently left the church. The golden plates story makes no sense to me (and I am clearly not a Latter Day Saint) so I must assume

a) Smith pulled a fast one on them - but how?
b) They lied. This would seem the most likely option to me, but why hold to the testimony later after leaving the new Church?
c) The Golden Plates were hallucinated in some way
d) The golden Plates were real, and taken by an angel

I actually doubt all these options - so I remain cautiously open minded. There may be another solution.

So it is far from impossible that the original Gospel stories contain fiction, outright lies, or metaphor later understood as fact. Yet having studied the issue for twenty odd years, I am pretty certain that the authors actually were trying to tell the truth as they believed it (for reasons I will cheerfully explain if anyone interested.)

Now it gets more complex -- what is the relationship between their perception of the truth, and the actual objective facts of events in 1st century Judea? This as i may have suggested a few times in this thread is a historical question, exactly the same as every other historical question. I look at the reliability of the sources, and surviving documentary evidence, and how it fits in the belief structures of the time. In short we try to work out the "spin" of the sources - and we find ourselves in exactly the same position as trying to understand the causes of say the Jewish Revolt, or the course of the Battle of Actium, or the death of Virgil. We will never be able to test absolutely the veracity of our sources, or view those events personally - so we make a critical judgment - all that differs from a historian ot a peddlar of woo is how well they understand the sources, and the context, and so th relative weight we place on their judgements.

I suspect what DOC intends is to defend the simple claim you state - that the Gospel authors wrote what they believed to be true - because ti si very hard to say more of any person, writing ever - indeed the same applies to my writiing now. Still it's always fun to discuss -- and I must go get some food, and think about opening my presents!

Merry Christmas or Merry Festivus and Merry whatever else you choose to cleeberate in the next few days! :)

cj x


But there is another issue that arises with the gospels that is not true for the ancient works of history. We have a pretty good idea who wrote the ancient histories, even though we have to work out their reasons for spinning what they saw in the way they did.

We are not sure who wrote the gospels. They do not appear to be first-hand, eye-witness accounts, as I think you would probably agree, but productions of people who worked from other sources (like most of the ancient histories).

Yes, this group of people came to believe that Jesus has been resurrected, and we do not know precisely why they believed it. This belief does not necessarily reflect reality.

We can easily postulate that Jesus' followers dreamed his reappearance, and the dream was shared amongst them, so that they began to see it as reality (dreams being thought of differently at that time); and when it came time to write the stories, the "dream issue" had been forgotten or left to the side.

Paul's experience of the risen Christ took place, if we believe the sources, in some sort of vision, yet he referred to Jesus appearing to him aas though this appearance were somehow the same as Jesus appearing to the disciples. This seems to have been the turning point for Paul -- this vision led him to believe that Jesus truly had been resurrected. But how do we know that this vision reflected reality? Could Paul have felt some degree of guilt over his persecution of people who seemed so adamant about their beliefs? Could this have produced such inner turmoil that his vision emerged from his "unconscious mind"?

If Paul's experience was in a vision, could it not be that others experienced Jesus' "return" in much the same way?

Since it appears likely that the gospels were cobbled together from early sources with later literary additions -- at least that is the way it appears to me (and I agree with you that I think John appears to have some very early material in it; but some very late material as well) -- and since they are confessional works and not histories proper, how can we be sure that such a scenario did not take place, the vision or dream aspect being dropped as the need to tell others of the imminent return of the kingdom rose?
 
You and others are entitled to your opinions. But like I said, I'll be happy if people with an open mind read at least half of my posts.

As a long-time lurker, I would like to express that I have read the entire thread and found that you have not provided any evidence whatsoever.
 
But there is another issue that arises with the gospels that is not true for the ancient works of history. We have a pretty good idea who wrote the ancient histories, even though we have to work out their reasons for spinning what they saw in the way they did.

Yes, but with reservations. :) I suspect we know more about the environment that produced the Gospels than is sometimes alleged - I will review the current scholarship on the issue sometime, if only to update myself! :) Many of the great works of antiquity however are anonymous or of disputed authorship? The classic histories - Herodotus - sure we have a good idea of the author - but this is certainly not true of many - and in fact one of my favourites classical texts which has probably led to more controversies over authorship than claims about Shakespeare is that of Homer. Our biographical understanding of the authors, even those we can place a name to, is often shall we say minimal?

We are not sure who wrote the gospels. They do not appear to be first-hand, eye-witness accounts, as I think you would probably agree, but productions of people who worked from other sources (like most of the ancient histories).

Agreed totally. However the authors were working under a peculiar constraint that was not going to influence the authors of say the Alexiad, and which I think will need some explanation - so I'll go do what I have to do now, then reply properly, then in turn move to the fascinating issues you raise with the Resurrection accounts - where i think we have much agreement.


cj x
 
Yes, but with reservations. :) I suspect we know more about the environment that produced the Gospels than is sometimes alleged - I will review the current scholarship on the issue sometime, if only to update myself! :) Many of the great works of antiquity however are anonymous or of disputed authorship? The classic histories - Herodotus - sure we have a good idea of the author - but this is certainly not true of many - and in fact one of my favourites classical texts which has probably led to more controversies over authorship than claims about Shakespeare is that of Homer. Our biographical understanding of the authors, even those we can place a name to, is often shall we say minimal?


Right, but it doesn't matter to our understanding of the structure of the universe that the Iliad and Oddysey were constructed according to rhythmic concerns from an oral culture, nor did many of the educated Greeks by the 4th century B.C. seem to think that the stories were definitely historically true in all particulars (though they as we saw them as containing a kernel of historical truth). As you well know, those stories were viewed as the proper way to be a man, not as a reflection of external reality. As to approaches toward the gospels, in the same way -- as a model on which to structure a life -- as I think you already know, I am in full agreement. I think you could create a terrific life by following the stories (though, as with everything, this requires quite a bit of picking and choosing).

As to authorship in histories, though, we have several Greek examples where the author directly refers to himself in the first few pages -- this is certainly true of Herodotus, Thucydides and Xenophon (in some of his works) as well as Polybius (if memory serves, and though he was writing about the Romans as you well know so I'm wasting band space just writing this......). IIRC Gaius Julis Caesar refers to himself by name in his dispatches though I really can't recall Plutarch or Sallust doing so.

It's a bit different for the gospels. Many scholars think that John, for instance, was redacted more than once, though I don't know enough to evaluate those claims. I've read some of Burton Mack's ideas and think he is way out in left field with assumptions built on assumptions on more assumptions.

The closest to an ancient history is, of course, Luke/Acts, where single authorship without redaction seems to be the case -- much like other histories from the time.

One simple truth is that people do not decide how to live their lives based on whether a scribe changed an article here or there in Caesar's work. But arguments are frequently constructed on the precise wording of New Testament works. So, with the ancient histories, the precise authorship doesn't particularly matter. It matters quite a bit, however, whether or not the gospels were actually written by eye-witnesses, at least for a number of American Christians.


Agreed totally. However the authors were working under a peculiar constraint that was not going to influence the authors of say the Alexiad, and which I think will need some explanation - so I'll go do what I have to do now, then reply properly, then in turn move to the fascinating issues you raise with the Resurrection accounts - where i think we have much agreement.


cj x


True, but I really don't want to relive my experience with primary source materials for the First Crusade. First year of university, don't read at all quickly, and I wasn't prepared to have 1500 pages of this stuff thrust at me 2 weeks before a major exam. It gave me the willies then and gives me the willies now. Would you like to put a little lemon juice on that paper cut?

Not that I'm bitter about it or anything.

I'm very interested in hearing what constraints you think were in play.
 
If it's any consolation I spent eight months of last year reading the sources for the Fourth Crusade and Fall of Constantinople, and then trying to reconstruct from things like the Chronicle of Morea the subsequent political situation in the former Byzantine Empire 1204-1230 for something I was working on. I share your pain! :p I must say that the secondary literature on the details of the Byzantine successor states and this period is almost non-existent, at least among Western European historians - it makes British sources on the French section of the front in World War one look positively abundant and useful! - so it was an excruciating business. I'm currently writing on another topic just as difficult with regards to sources, but I had better not say what until it's published. :(

Oh yes, constraints. Very quickly, without references and warning this constitutes what Wikipedia might call "original research" as I'm not sure how far it reflects the current academic consensus - the oral stories preserved about Jesus are clearly NOT the totality of the pericope circulating at the time of the writing of the gospels. In fact, a couple of the gospel authors make this plain, and say so explicitly. The stories we have reflect the sitz in leben of the Early Church - they were preserved as useful to some problem or teaching the Church wished to express - that much is uncontroversial.

I'd go further, like a bus load of Merry Pranksters heading east to Millbrook. We can tell that in fact the authoes also shape their material in line with their own theological spin - no surprise there - and that they have there own literary conventions or way of writing - compare and contrast the depiction of Jesus in John with the "Messianic Secret" motif so obvious in Mark. Still, even beyond the selection of material by the authors for whatever reasons, it is highly likely that by the time the Gospels were written the early Christian communities (I don't think Early Church is really an appropriate term though I often use it through sheer laziness) have actually got a standard by which stories about Jesus are judged - the Apostolic Acid Test if you like.

The Apostles, the inner circle who were there from the beginning, seem to have held considerable authority - I can only think of non-apostolic three figures who may well have been as influential. One I only suspect - Mary the mother of Jesus. One we can clearly see - James, Jesus' Brother, Head of the Jerusalem Church.Both are clearly authorities in their knowledge of Jesus.

The third was Paul, or Saul if you prefer. And here we hot a massive problem - because Paul was a highly influential figure, a great theological figure, and clearly NOT an apostle. In fact the other apostles question his teachings and it would seem likely by various things he writes, his very write to teach. Because Paul was not there. He missed the ministry, he missed the Passion, and he missed the Resurrection appearances.

So from his writings, especially in Galatians, we can see the conflict which culminates in what is often called the "Council of Jerusalem" in 62 as i recall? Paul stands sort of half way between the Apostles and modern Christians - the Apostles believed what they had seen - but Paul had a spiritual experience of the Risen Christ,as you rightly mention (though it's far more complex than it first seems and will form part of the discussion in my next post, replying to your former points I still have not got round to!). So Paul makes himself a new type of apostle "as of one untimely born" as he says, and the Church accept him - a bit warily perhaps - but we notice something very interesting in his writings in the seven authentic Pauline Epistles.

Paul is very scanty on the Historical Jesus, in terms of biography. That si not to say he gives us no information ---as is often claimed -- about the Historical Jesus, for he does and I can summarize it here with quotes for anyone interested. However generally, even when his argument would be strengthened by reference to the biography of Jesus, he shys away. Why? Doherty and others who believe Jesus was fictional cite this as sinister - but I see it as perfectly understandable. Paul has been pulled up for teaching without Apostolic authority - he is talking about someone he never knew in the flesh. If he tries to draw upon the liefe of Jesus, he can easily make mistakes, or include claims that are falsifiable by the still living witnesses - the Apostles. So he avoid the subject, and works theologically, and through his own experience. He is not afraid to argue theology with the Apostles - but he has ot be careful to never overstep what he actually knows about Jesus - and we see this reflected in his writings.

What does this tell us? That there was in fact a process of authentication of material going on - that there is an Apostolic tradition, that is used ot test the pericope. As the Apostles dies off there is a need for biographies which reflect the apostolic teaching - but now that teaching is disseminated in various communities around the diaspora and the Eastern Mediterranean, so the gospels are composed, and probably read by those taught by the apostles - a process we can see continuously as primitive Christianity begins to definie itself as distinct from Judaism and from the various gnostic versions of Jesus. This claim to apostolic authority remains central to the early Christian communities - and so it forms a constraint in that one can to teach contrary to the apostolic "memory". In areas not covered by the Apostles - and i strongly suspect the birth as one - stories could be accepted, and contrary versions accepted - but the core events have to refer back to stories told by those who were there. A theological system of checks and balances are in place.

Yet even in the Resurrection accounts, different Apostles had given different accounts one assumes, and we see a complex patter n emerging, where seemingly contradictory accounts - who was first at the tomb? - emerge in different communities. I find this quite understandable - the writers were drawing in each case on what they felt was the most reliable source - hence the disagreement between them. If the transmission was as simple as say Mark wrote, then Matthew copied him then Luke copied Matthew, then we would expect a broad agreement. If the whole thing was a fiction, we would expect agreement, because the story would develop, and change, but you would be careful to get your key details accurate in your spin on it. Here however i suspect we actually see the problem of the apostolic authority - the apostles kerygama, message, was very much focused on what to do and how to receive the faith, and the historical part of their accounts while treasured reflect a number of revered witnesses quibbling over what really happened twenty years before. So high was the regard hel for them, the inconsistencies had to be accepted - because they were depsite the problems better than the competing teachings in circulation which while "smoother" disagreed with the Apostolic accounts?

Dunno. I'll reply to your other bit later if i can. Hope not too way out :)

cj x
 
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