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Merged David Chandler (ae911) sez "WTC7 was in free fall part of the time"

How many people have this engineer’s failed ideas on ignore?

He have me on ignore! :S

I asked him one question about his previous pizza box experiment and I made two important bumbs to him and the result was no answer and I ended up on his ignore list.

Talk about embarrasing....
 
He have me on ignore! :S

I asked him one question about his previous pizza box experiment and I made two important bumbs to him and the result was no answer and I ended up on his ignore list.

Talk about embarrasing....
You are right there with Gravity and most of physics. Not bad company.
 
So Hewia, how much pressure would be needed to destroy the columns necessary to destroy WTC7?

And you've never answered whether or not I can share the honor of your Stundie Award for the month of November since I nominated you for it.

Not sure why I am arguing with you since I am positive you are either insane or a troll. I am intoxicated so maybe that is why.
And, since pressure acts in all directions, how do you pressurize the upper flors such that the pressure ONLY acts downward and doesn't lift the ceilings?

Explosives! Lotsa um, shaped charges all over the floor!
And Nobody Noticed!
 
It's getting ugly over at AE911Truthland. Chandler published a little item about his new video, and I'm disappointed at the way he chose to misrepresent what NIST said. In fact, it's a little hypocritical of him.

For example, he says that NIST arbitrarily chose a starting point to justify their 5.4 second time that it took for WTC 7 to fall 18 stories. That's simply not true. NIST is very clear about what they did. In the report, they start their time zero when the roofline visibly begins to fall. That's not arbitrary. That's right there on the video, and it's the exact same criteria Chandler himself uses for his own measurements.

I'd had some respect for Chandler because his measurements turned out to be close to the mark and actually did help verify the NIST computer model further. It's too bad that he's chosen to make some blatant mischaracterizations of NIST's action to justify his fantasies of controlled demolition.
 
You still don't understand, do you? You do not require a seal to produce vacuum or, my suggestion, under pressure.
The WTC7 demolition went fast. No time to set up a seal. Use your brains, if you have any.

Since you're asking others to be polite, the final clause would seem a little inconsistent.

Your argument here is complete rubbish. A seal of some sort is required to produce a significant amount of vacuum for a reasonable time. If there was no time to set up a seal, then there can't have been a significant amount of vacuum for a reasonable time. Your argument seems to be that a vacuum was known to exist, that there wasn't time to set up a seal, therefore it follows that a vacuum can exist without a seal. Your first premise is unproven.

Vacuum device? What's wrong with under pressure and no device?

OK, so you're backing off on the vacuum claim? Fine. In that case, you require a device that produces a significant overpressure in the open air above the roof of WTC7. We'll quietly ignore the massive hole known to exist in the roof, over the time period in which the facade's fall was fitted to a 1g acceleration, arising from the prior collapse of the mechanical penthouses; let's assume that the roof was able to resist this overpressure and transmit the resulting force to the collapse zone. What could have caused this overpressure, without producing any visible effects, or indeed being at all visible itself?

In my opinion you have to remove most columns below floor 11 to start the show. It takes two seconds. How is this done? I will tell you later. You have to be patient.

As some columns are still there providing resistance, you need under pressure below floor 11 to suck down the structural assembly above floor 11 at free fall. Gravity alone cannot produce free fall, when there are columns below providing resistance, you see. This part of the show takes 2.5 seconds.

And now you've decided to argue for a partial vacuum again, persisting for 2.5 seconds with no possibility of a seal around it. Let's see what we can deduce about the collapse initiation mechanism assuming your hypothesis has any merit to it.

Firstly, at most your downward acceleration due to vacuum is about 0.5-0.6g (as I said earlier, I made a stupid mistake last week; you're right on this point). If we take your oft-repeated figure of 3 for the safety factor, that means that a hard vacuum alone could not initiate collapse below about the 30th-35th floor, as the increase in downward force has to be at least twice the weight above the collapse initiation zone for columns to fail. Therefore, we need to invoke some other means of severing columns for a collapse at the 11th floor. Let's assume, further, that your handwaved imaginary silent mechanism for doing this exists. How many do we need to cut?

The columns at floor 11 are capable of supporting 3 x 36/47 times the full weight of the building, or about 2.3 building weights. The vacuum exerts 0.6 building weights, and the building from the 12th floor upwards exerts 0.76 building weights. The excess strength of the columns is therefore 0.94 building weights, so this amount of strength must be removed before collapse. This requires the removal of over 40% of the columns at floor 11.

OK, now suppose you're the conspirator planning to demolish WTC7. You have at your disposal two super-secret demolition devices. One of these can sever columns silently and invisibly, causing a building to collapse with very similar features to a controlled demolition, but which can easily be explained away by claiming that columns failed due to fire, and that the gross features of collapse would be expected to resemble those of a controlled demolition. The other can create a vacuum inside a building, causing its collapse to accelerate too rapidly to be explained by any similarity to a controlled demolition, and in fact creating a physically observable feature of collapse that can't be explained satisfactorily.

Can you explain why you would want to use the second device, rather than simply severing 67% of the columns undetectably with the first one?

It can't be to ensure a rapid and symmetrical collapse of WTC7, by the way. Since one of the aims of the operation was to kill thousands of innocent bystanders, limiting collateral damage at this late stage seems a little counter-productive.

Dave
 
Since you're asking others to be polite, the final clause would seem a little inconsistent.

Your argument here is complete rubbish. A seal of some sort is required to produce a significant amount of vacuum for a reasonable time. If there was no time to set up a seal, then there can't have been a significant amount of vacuum for a reasonable time. Your argument seems to be that a vacuum was known to exist, that there wasn't time to set up a seal, therefore it follows that a vacuum can exist without a seal. Your first premise is unproven.



OK, so you're backing off on the vacuum claim? Fine. In that case, you require a device that produces a significant overpressure in the open air above the roof of WTC7. We'll quietly ignore the massive hole known to exist in the roof, over the time period in which the facade's fall was fitted to a 1g acceleration, arising from the prior collapse of the mechanical penthouses; let's assume that the roof was able to resist this overpressure and transmit the resulting force to the collapse zone. What could have caused this overpressure, without producing any visible effects, or indeed being at all visible itself?



And now you've decided to argue for a partial vacuum again, persisting for 2.5 seconds with no possibility of a seal around it. Let's see what we can deduce about the collapse initiation mechanism assuming your hypothesis has any merit to it.

Firstly, at most your downward acceleration due to vacuum is about 0.5-0.6g (as I said earlier, I made a stupid mistake last week; you're right on this point). If we take your oft-repeated figure of 3 for the safety factor, that means that a hard vacuum alone could not initiate collapse below about the 30th-35th floor, as the increase in downward force has to be at least twice the weight above the collapse initiation zone for columns to fail. Therefore, we need to invoke some other means of severing columns for a collapse at the 11th floor. Let's assume, further, that your handwaved imaginary silent mechanism for doing this exists. How many do we need to cut?

The columns at floor 11 are capable of supporting 3 x 36/47 times the full weight of the building, or about 2.3 building weights. The vacuum exerts 0.6 building weights, and the building from the 12th floor upwards exerts 0.76 building weights. The excess strength of the columns is therefore 0.94 building weights, so this amount of strength must be removed before collapse. This requires the removal of over 40% of the columns at floor 11.

OK, now suppose you're the conspirator planning to demolish WTC7. You have at your disposal two super-secret demolition devices. One of these can sever columns silently and invisibly, causing a building to collapse with very similar features to a controlled demolition, but which can easily be explained away by claiming that columns failed due to fire, and that the gross features of collapse would be expected to resemble those of a controlled demolition. The other can create a vacuum inside a building, causing its collapse to accelerate too rapidly to be explained by any similarity to a controlled demolition, and in fact creating a physically observable feature of collapse that can't be explained satisfactorily.

Can you explain why you would want to use the second device, rather than simply severing 67% of the columns undetectably with the first one?

It can't be to ensure a rapid and symmetrical collapse of WTC7, by the way. Since one of the aims of the operation was to kill thousands of innocent bystanders, limiting collateral damage at this late stage seems a little counter-productive.

Dave

You are 100% right that the columns at floor 11 can carry 3X the static weight actually applied! I actually mentioned that earlier - static stresses in columns are <30% yield/buckling stress. So the structure is very strong with plenty or redundancy. NIST disagrees! According their magic software (details unknown) you only have to remove one little piece of one column (no. 79) between floors 11/13 and the whole WTC7 collapses: structural parts are ripped apart from several connections and then flying around - all computed by the NIST software + plots of various stages of collapses.

Regardless - the question we try to answer is how the top part above floors 11/13 is seen in free fall during 2.25 seconds! One condition of free fall is no resistance below the top part = all columns there must have been removed!
If there is resistance below, this resistance can be eliminated by applying an under pressure below the top part - to suck it down. We agree that vacuum can apply a force producing 0.5g extra acceleration down (if you can produce it). Less under pressure will produce less sucking force.

My hypothesis is that columns were actually removed (or cut) below floor 11 prior collapse (i.e. caused the collapse) and that the method used to remove/cut the columns also provided under pressure. The end result become the free fall cleverly detected by Chandler.

But how can I suggest that columns were manipulated below floor 11 (and caused the collapse)? Well, look at the rubble or the big chunks of junk there originating from the structure below floor 11. Big chunks have their column and girders cut in six locations (away from solid connections); loose parts dropping from above by gravity could not produce that ... in my simple opinion. My suspicion is evidently supported by the fact that the NIST analysis of the collapse is a scam. Quite terrible, all of it, to say the least.
 
My hypothesis is that columns were actually removed (or cut) below floor 11 prior collapse (i.e. caused the collapse) and that the method used to remove/cut the columns also provided under pressure. The end result become the free fall cleverly detected by Chandler.

That falls far short of being a fully formed hypothesis, in that you're not suggesting a means by which a method of cutting columns can produce a significant underpressure for a period of 2.5 seconds without the possibility of a seal being present. What mechanism do you propose for creation of the underpressure, how quickly does it produce what underpressure, and how is that underpressure sustained for 2.5 seconds?

Dave
 
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Your argument here is complete rubbish. A seal of some sort is required to produce a significant amount of vacuum for a reasonable time. If there was no time to set up a seal, then there can't have been a significant amount of vacuum for a reasonable time. Your argument seems to be that a vacuum was known to exist, that there wasn't time to set up a seal, therefore it follows that a vacuum can exist without a seal. Your first premise is unproven.

Dave

There's also the impossibility of windows holding against any kind of vacuum.

They break at what, 1-2 psi differential?
 
There's also the impossibility of windows holding against any kind of vacuum.

They break at what, 1-2 psi differential?

Much less than that. 1PSI differential on a 10x10 window is 14,400 lbs of force. More like .2 to .4 PSI..

Heiwa needs to bag the vacuum nonsense, it's just plain silly.
 
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That falls far short of being a fully formed hypothesis, in that you're not suggesting a means by which a method of cutting columns can produce a significant underpressure for a period of 2.5 seconds without the possibility of a seal being present. What mechanism do you propose for creation of the underpressure, how quickly does it produce what underpressure, and how is that underpressure sustained for 2.5 seconds?

Dave

No idea! I am more interested in the NIST magic software. Any idea where they got it? Hollywood?

And do you have any ideas about the strange rubble?
 
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No idea! I am more interested in the NIST magic software. Any idea where they got it? Hollywood?

OK, so you don't have a feasible hypothesis to compete with the one that, as the facade collapse initiated, already collapsing core elements stopped breaking lateral connections and instead transferred momentum to the facade, resulting in a collapse rate within experimental errors of freefall over a limited period of time. Nice to know we've got that settled.

And do you have any ideas about the strange rubble?

Post some pictures of the strange rubble with descriptions of what you think is strange about it. I have no idea, based your posting history, what you personally would consider strange.

Dave
 
Much less than that. 1PSI differential on a 10x10 window is 14,400 lbs of force. More like .2 to .4 PSI..

Heiwa needs to bag the vacuum nonsense, it's just plain silly.

Oh dear, so it's even worse than I imagined........

Poor Heiwa, lost in a world of troofiness.
 
OK, so you don't have a feasible hypothesis to compete with the one that, as the facade collapse initiated, already collapsing core elements stopped breaking lateral connections and instead transferred momentum to the facade, resulting in a collapse rate within experimental errors of freefall over a limited period of time. Nice to know we've got that settled.

Dave

???? According NIST the collapse was initiated by failure of column 79 between floors 11/13. There was no redundancy.

Any ideas about software used for this conclusion?
 
???? According NIST the collapse was initiated by failure of column 79 between floors 11/13. There was no redundancy.

Any ideas about software used for this conclusion?
No, according to NIST, fires caused WTC7 collapse. You can’t get the simple stuff right as your vacuum fantasy takes flight into the darkness of ignorance.

Heiwa is making up lies to apologize for terrorist. NIST says a lot more than what Heiwa lies about. See NIST for more information that Heiwa never will get to since he is off on some fantasy quest.
http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/factsheet/wtc_qa_082108.html
How did the fires cause WTC 7 to collapse?
The heat from the uncontrolled fires caused steel floor beams and girders to thermally expand, leading to a chain of events that caused a key structural column to fail. The failure of this structural column then initiated a fire-induced progressive collapse of the entire building.
According to the report’s probable collapse sequence, heat from the uncontrolled fires caused thermal expansion of the steel beams on the lower floors of the east side of WTC 7, damaging the floor framing on multiple floors.
Eventually, a girder on Floor 13 lost its connection to a critical column, Column 79, that provided support for the long floor spans on the east side of the building (see Diagram 1). The displaced girder and other local fire-induced damage caused Floor 13 to collapse, beginning a cascade of floor failures down to the 5th floor. Many of these floors had already been at least partially weakened by the fires in the vicinity of Column 79. This collapse of floors left Column 79 insufficiently supported in the east-west direction over nine stories. ...
http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/factsheet/wtc_qa_082108.html For more
Heiwa continues to spew lies about WTC7 and now has some vacuum weapon that destroyed WTC7.
Heiwa is wrong about everything.
 
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???? According NIST the collapse was initiated by failure of column 79 between floors 11/13. There was no redundancy.

Any ideas about software used for this conclusion?

Wow, you don't even understand what NIST wrote in plain English. Or you refuse to so that you can entertain your fantasies about controlled demolition.

The 11/13 test of column 79 was not the explanation of how WTC 7 fell. It was a sidebar experiment, meant to illustrate a point about column 79. It is not how NIST says the building actually fell.

Aren't you embarrassed, as a engineer, that a closed captioner is pointing this out to you?
 
Wow, you don't even understand what NIST wrote in plain English. Or you refuse to so that you can entertain your fantasies about controlled demolition.

The 11/13 test of column 79 was not the explanation of how WTC 7 fell. It was a sidebar experiment, meant to illustrate a point about column 79. It is not how NIST says the building actually fell.

Aren't you embarrassed, as a engineer, that a closed captioner is pointing this out to you?
Heiwa knows he's full of crap, however his audience is not bright (perhaps not the best word, informed maybe better) enough to realize this (remember his target audience is children).

Anyone that actually read the NIST WTC 7 final report would know that his arguments are directed to those people who won't (read it) and want to find someone with engineering knowledge to argue what they can not. He is just that attention seeker they crave, pure and simple.

Heiwa:

Try presenting your results to adult engineers some time (whoops, he did that (here) and got shot to hell).
 
No, according to NIST, fires caused WTC7 collapse. You can’t get the simple stuff right as your vacuum fantasy takes flight into the darkness of ignorance.

Heiwa is making up lies to apologize for terrorist. NIST says a lot more than what Heiwa lies about. See NIST for more information that Heiwa never will get to since he is off on some fantasy quest.

Heiwa continues to spew lies about WTC7 and now has some vacuum weapon that destroyed WTC7.
Heiwa is wrong about everything.
But since fires cannot burn in a vacuum, it must have been explosive thermite.
Whadda you, blind
??
Profit!
 
No, according to NIST, fires caused WTC7 collapse. You can’t get the simple stuff right as your vacuum fantasy takes flight into the darkness of ignorance.

http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/f...qa_082108.html
How did the fires cause WTC 7 to collapse?
The heat from the uncontrolled fires caused steel floor beams and girders to thermally expand, leading to a chain of events that caused a key structural column to fail. The failure of this structural column then initiated a fire-induced progressive collapse of the entire building.
According to the report’s probable collapse sequence, heat from the uncontrolled fires caused thermal expansion of the steel beams on the lower floors of the east side of WTC 7, damaging the floor framing on multiple floors.
Eventually, a girder on Floor 13 lost its connection to a critical column, Column 79, that provided support for the long floor spans on the east side of the building (see Diagram 1). The displaced girder and other local fire-induced damage caused Floor 13 to collapse, beginning a cascade of floor failures down to the 5th floor. Many of these floors had already been at least partially weakened by the fires in the vicinity of Column 79. This collapse of floors left Column 79 insufficiently supported in the east-west direction over nine stories. ...
http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/f...qa_082108.html For more

I quoted part of your post because I wanted to highlight some very important points to Heiwa. Aside from the vacuum nonsense that I'd need translator to decipher as to any relevance it has at all, Heiwa's claimed that the redundancy of e structural members should have accommodated the extra loading conditions as they'd have been transferred when the main collapse initiation took place. Heiwa have you considered the effects of damage to other structural members and their ability to take over the loads? Have you accounted these factors into the real design yet? As of yet you've directed myself and others to 2-dimensional representations which do not accurately represent the design. I am curious if you intend to make any corrections to that in the future
 

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