Israeli blockade 'forces Palestinians to search rubbish dumps for food'

[Darth Rotor]

according to WildCats "thinking" it is ok to hold Civilians responsible for the deeds of their government.

I don't think you understand the problem of collective activity. The role of the government in Gaza is to do what it can to take care of the needs and concerns of its citizens. A troubling problem for any government is priorities and dealing with other governments. Has Hamas prioritized the struggle with Israel higher than the welfare of its citizens? What deals has Hamas cut on behalf of its people, who elected Hamas? Whether you like it or not, between nations the interactions are aggregated, with an impact of good, bad, or somewhat neutral on those whose government is working, or not, on their behalf.

Just hope you dont come across an Iraqi that lost his family do to freedombombs.

What's a freedombomb? Is it anything like the paylod of stupid you are trying to drop here? Pro Tip: first, arm the weapon, then drop it. You keep missing the target.

we should send all US citizens to den Haag and jail them for Torture and other violations of Human Rights.

And so the truth comes out. Thanks, DC, for being honest to a fault. It is appreciated.

they voted twice for Republicans and the Warpresident.

Yes, America did. If you don't like it, tough crap. You might be amazed to note that a few Americans were disappointed in that outcome as well. Screw them, DC, off to the Hague they go. (You do realize the space limitations, right? ) You are invited to do something about it other than whinge on an internet forum.

What's in your wallet, DC?

DR

 

[BirdStrike]

Rika, give up. Seriously. What's the point debating.

If these people want to endlessly absolve the Palestinian people from their actions , votes, and responsibilities, then there is absolutely nothing we can post to change that.

Sadly they are not helping things by deflecting responsibility, they are perpetuating the status quo by transferring the responsibility to everyone else except the Palestinian people and Hamas.

Denial of responsibility: This form of denial involves avoiding personal responsibility by blaming, minimizing or justifying. Blaming is a direct statement shifting culpability and may overlap with denial of fact.

 

[DC]

I don't think you understand the problem of collective activity. The role of the government in Gaza is to do what it can to take care of the needs and concerns of its citizens. A troubling problem for any government is priorities and dealing with other governments. Has Hamas prioritized the struggle with Israel higher than the welfare of its citizens? What deals has Hamas cut on behalf of its people, who elected Hamas? Whether you like it or not, between nations the interactions are aggregated, with an impact of good, bad, or somewhat neutral on those whose government is working, or not, on their behalf.

What's a freedombomb? Is it anything like the paylod of stupid you are trying to drop here? Pro Tip: first, arm the weapon, then drop it. You keep missing the target.

And so the truth comes out. Thanks, DC, for being honest to a fault. It is appreciated.

Yes, America did. If you don't like it, tough crap. You might be amazed to note that a few Americans were disappointed in that outcome as well. Screw them, DC, off to the Hague they go. (You do realize the space limitations, right? ) You are invited to do something about it other than whinge on an internet forum.

What's in your wallet, DC?

DR

ah you seem to dislike the idea of a collective punishment for the US Citizens.

why the diffrent standard for Palestinians? because your terrorists wear Uniforms ?

While it is pointed out that the Blockade is starving civillians, no outcry from the Israel supporters.

They voted for Hamas.

But on 9/11 the outcry was big. And according to the CIA, it was a backfire from US foreign policies over the last decades.

So by the same logic, UBL's collective punishmnet on 9/11 was OK, the US citizens was responsible for those foreign policies, you voted for your government.

 

[KoihimeNakamura]

All errors in red.

ah you seem to dislike the idea of a collective punishment for the US Citizens.

why the diffrent standard for Palestinians? because your terrorists wear Uniforms ?

They voted for Hamas.

They got what they voted for.

But on 9/11 the outcry was big. And according to the CIA, it was a backfire from US foreign policies over the last decades.

So by the same logic, UBL's collective punishmnet on 9/11 was OK, the US citizens was responsible for those foreign policies, you voted for your government.

The corrections: When we intentionally kill civilians instead of miltary targets, you may have a point.

 

[WildCat]

But on 9/11 the outcry was big. And according to the CIA, it was a backfire from US foreign policies over the last decades.

So by the same logic, UBL's collective punishmnet on 9/11 was OK, the US citizens was responsible for those foreign policies, you voted for your government.

Wait, are you now admitting that OBL and al Qaeda did 9/11, and not Cheney and Bush?

 

[DC]

Rika, give up. Seriously. What's the point debating.

If these people want to endlessly absolve the Palestinian people from their actions , votes, and responsibilities, then there is absolutely nothing we can post to change that.

Sadly they are not helping things by deflecting responsibility, they are perpetuating the status quo by transferring the responsibility to everyone else except the Palestinian people and Hamas.

you cannot post anything to change my mind, indeed.

you that say the Palestinians should just move on and be happy with what was offered to them.

While you have a complete diffrent standard for Israel. The jews lived in Diaspora, and someday some jews decide to not only go back to the place that belonged to them 3000 years ago, they also want to creat an own state there. No mathere if others live there today.

You would be one of those that oppose to give back half of your country to those that was there before you came there.

 

[DC]

Wait, are you now admitting that OBL and al Qaeda did 9/11, and not Cheney and Bush?

you seem to have missed my farewell post in the 9/11 section.

 

[WildCat]

you seem to have missed my farewell post in the 9/11 section.

Nope, missed that one. Welcome to the OCT club!

 

[BirdStrike]

you cannot post anything to change my mind, indeed.

Ya. Why cloud the issue with facts.

you that say the Palestinians should just move on and be happy with what was offered to them.

If I have NOTHING and I am offered SOMETHING, who's the dummy now?

You would be one of those that oppose to give back half of your country to those that was there before you came there.

Every single country on earth belonged to some indigenous population at one time. And it was taken, conquered, lost - see: America, South America, Australia to name just a few. So don't throw that load of bull at the wall to see if it sticks.

While it is pointed out that the Blockade is starving civillians, no outcry from the Israel supporters.

Gosh. I wonder why the Israeli government has restricted trade with the territory firing rockets at it's population centers. How dare they!

But on 9/11 the outcry was big.

So now "9-11" = "trade restrictions by Israel." Got it.

See Rika? Pointless.

 

[Darth Rotor]

ah you seem to dislike the idea of a collective punishment for the US Citizens.

OPEC did it in 1973. We are still here.

why the diffrent standard for Palestinians? because your terrorists wear Uniforms ?

Oxymoron, from a moron. Nice.

While it is pointed out that the Blockade is starving civillians, no outcry from the Israel supporters.

I'll ask you what I ask EJ: are Israel and Hamas at war? Yes or no?

They voted for Hamas.

Yes, which I thought was great. Seriously. The idea of democracy happening simply due to an election needs to be exposed for the fraud that it is. That meme needs to die. On the other hand, elections are an important part of the process, so IMO it was a great first step. That Hamas is an extremist party (as opposed to Fatah or other Pal parties vying for votes) is somewhat like the French Nationalist party getting into power: they could get elected, but France might trip over themselves for a while with that government in place.

But on 9/11 the outcry was big. And according to the CIA, it was a backfire from US foreign policies over the last decades.

I think the term you seek is backlash, and that is a very practical assessment. The US has been having terrorist trouble with Islamists since the 1970's. (I inclue hijacking as part of the picture.) It's an ideological and political struggle. Osama got a blow in for what he sees as his side. His apologists and supporters cheered. I note that among some Pals, the reaction was positive, though I doubt that was the case for all.

So by the same logic, UBL's collective punishmnet on 9/11 was OK, the US citizens was responsible for those foreign policies, you voted for your government.

Collective punishment isn't what he did. You are trying to shoehorn a word into something it isn't. It was very simply an attack on major symbols of the US and those who Osama saw as his side's enemy: America. New York is America's, and to some extent, the world's, financial center. The Pentagon is the alleged center of gravity of US military activity. You might recall why Osama attackd that, with his anger of American troops in his Holy Land.

Clue up. It wasn't a collective punishment. It was nothing so elegant.

Likewise, the Pals have limits on their power. If you look at the early days of America as its own entity, you will see that America got some crappy treatment from both the British and the French (nearly went to war with France in late 1790's) to include the kidnapping/impressment of seamen from American flagged vessels.

Pondering Turtle used to keep this in his sig: Force s 's on Reason's back. Any presumption you have about equality among nations needs to face that reality.

DR

 

[DC]

Ya. Why cloud the issue with facts.



If I have NOTHING and I am offered SOMETHING, who's the dummy now?



Every single country on earth belonged to some indigenous population at one time. And it was taken, conquered, lost - see: America, South America, Australia to name just a few. So don't throw that load of bull at the wall to see if it sticks.



Gosh. I wonder why the Israeli government has restricted trade with the territory firing rockets at it's population centers. How dare they!



So now "9-11" = "trade restrictions by Israel." Got it.

See Rika? Pointless.

liar

 

[Dr Adequate]

So here's a question for you: why do you think a large majority of the Palestinian population voted a terrorist organization in to power in Gaza?

Easy. Because Fatah was unbelievably corrupt. And all other moderate political parties were run out of town by Arafat.

Er .. if true, doesn't this kind of torpedo your own point?

You can't blame the Palestinians collectively for not voting for moderates if that wasn't an option.

 

[Darth Rotor]

liar

You are getting what you asked for.

you cannot post anything to change my mind, indeed.

Then what would be the point of this dialogue. Scab picking?

you that say the Palestinians should just move on and be happy with what was offered to them.

He did? Where?

While you have a complete diffrent standard for Israel. The jews lived in Diaspora, and someday some jews decide to not only go back to the place that belonged to them 3000 years ago, they also want to creat an own state there. No mathere if others live there today.

Looks like they pulled it off against some long odds. What you didn't bother to say is that there is no guarantee that it will last.

You would be one of those that oppose to give back half of your country to those that was there before you came there.

Stupid beyond belief. Real life does not work that way. History moves forward most of the time. Or, DC, give half of Switzerland back to the Celts. (Related to the Hallstadt civilization.)
http://www.clannada.org/time_600bce.php

600 BCE The Celtic Tribes of Bituriges, Arverni, Senones, Aedui, Ambarri, Carnutes and Aulerci enter Italy via the Taurine and Duria passes in the Alps. Pliny stated that they were enticed south by reports of a "Gallic citizen of Switzerland named Hellico who had lived in Rome because of his skill as a craftsman". Apparently, the lands occupied by the Celts were becoming overpopulated, and Hellico had brought back wine and dried figs from Rome. These Celtic Tribes decided they liked these things, and headed south.

DR

 

[DC]

OPEC did it in 1973. We are still here.

Oxymoron, from a moron. Nice.

I'll ask you what I ask EJ: are Israel and Hamas at war? Yes or no?

Yes, which I thought was great. Seriously. The idea of democracy happening simply due to an election needs to be exposed for the fraud that it is, but then, elections are an important part of the process, so IMO it was a great first step. That Hamas is an extremist party is somewhat like the French Nationalist party getting into power: they could get elected, but France might trip over themselves for a while with that government in place.

I think the term you seek is backlash, and that is a very practical assessment. The US has been having terrorist trouble with Islamists since the 1970's. It's a political struggle. So, Osama got a blow in for what he sees as his side. His apologists and supporters cheered. I note that among some Pals, the reaction was positive, though I doubt that was the case for all.

Collective punishment isn't what he did. You are trying to shoehorn a word into something it isn't. It was very simply an attack on a powerful symbol (symbols) of the US and those who Osama saw as his side's enemies: America. New York is America's, and to some extent, the world's, financial center. The Pentagon is the alleged center of gravity of US military activity, and you might recall why Osama attackd that, with his anger of American troops in his Holy Land.

Clue up. It wasn't a collective punishment. It was nothing so elegant.

DR

is it officialy a War? not sure, i see it as a war yes.

how do you think its great Hamas was elected?
i can somehow understand they did it, but i never found it a good idea.
Or is it because now that the majority of the poeple voted for hamas, we can collectively punish them and point the fingers at the election results?

yes sad enough some paelstinians seem to have been happy with the atacks.
but atleast you point out that it was prolly not all of them. i even doubt that it was the majority of them.

Terrorists think the way some do here.
they are those that go an punish large groups of not selected people mainly just based on nationality and punish them / kill them because they feel unfair treated by the victims Government.

the blockade is not hindering Hamas or other terrorists, just like in Iraq, it is the innocent civilians that are punished with such a blockade.


Why did they elect hamas?
i doubt it was becuase Hamas rejects a 2 state solution. i think it was more a protests against fatah. Hamas was also known for theyr social aid inside Palestina (no i dont want to color them a good group) and was also known for theyr fight against corruption.
i think those points was far more important than the Hamas goals.
i think it was a stupid decision.
but what other partys was there to vote for?

 

[BirdStrike]

Er .. if true, doesn't this kind of torpedo your own point? You can't blame the Palestinians collectively for not voting for moderates if that wasn't an option.

I certainly don't assume that all Palestinians are either A) Hamas supporters, or B) Fatah supporters. There must be many who are neither. So who stopped the Palestinians from forming a third/fourth/fifth - moderate - party to elect? Me? You? Israel? Zionists? Martians? Planet X?

 

[Darth Rotor]

Er .. if true, doesn't this kind of torpedo your own point?

You can't blame the Palestinians collectively for not voting for moderates if that wasn't an option.

If you or anyone else is interested, there were multiple parties in both 2005 and 2006.

2005

Fatah did well.

2006

The final tabulation shows about 12 parties, with Hamas and Fatah getting the bulk of the votes. Hamas won enough to form a government with, IIRC, a bit of a coalition.

What "a moderate" in the context of the Pals I can't comment on, so I won't.

DR

 

[WildCat]

Er .. if true, doesn't this kind of torpedo your own point?

You can't blame the Palestinians collectively for not voting for moderates if that wasn't an option.

There's no reason moderates can't have their own party. If there's no moderate party in Gaza it's only because there isn't enough support for them to exist in the first place.

Don't forget, voter turnout in Gaza was nearly 77%. Not what you'd expect of a populace dissatisfied with their choices.

 

[DC]

You are getting what you asked for.

Then what would be the point of this dialogue. Scab picking?

He did? Where?

Looks like they pulled it off against some long odds. What you didn't bother to say is that there is no guarantee that it will last.

Stupid beyond belief. Real life does not work that way. History moves forward most of the time. Or, DC, give half of Switzerland back to the Celts. (Related to the Hallstadt civilization.)
http://www.clannada.org/time_600bce.php


DR

well true normaly History moves forward.
But from the Palestinians it is expected to accept that some moved History backwards.

I dont want to argue that the Jews should not have an own state. thats not the point. i think Israel is there now, and it must stay, and i really hope it will stay there.

But alot people seem to expect from the Palestinians to accept what most of us would not accept in our country.

I am totaly unpatriotic, but i am not sure if i would agree on giving back half of Switzerland to the Celts.

But i see patriotic americans that seem to think it is just normal to give half back to those that was there before you.


I know people that are geting more racist with every percent unemployment is climbng. and that is in one of the richest country in the world, even unemployed have a standard of living that is far above the majority of humans. Still they blame migrants for taking away work.
Our right wing is even so worried because we siwss produce not enough kids, so in some decades our country will be taken over by turks or someone else.

that is in my civilised and well educated country.

Now think back some 80 years. when 100 000's of Jews migrated to Palestina, and more followed, they even created an own state and have one of the strongest armys meanwhile, they get support from all over the world.

I am so not suprised it caused so many troubles, and is still causeing so much trouble.

from outside its so easy to say they should be peacefull or should move on.

and when you grow up in a tent between destroyed houses it is very unlikely you will stick to the teachings of Mahatma Gandhi.

 

[Dr Adequate]

I would have voted for some other party or sat out the election.

Unfortunately, that wouldn't have resulted in a special airlift of food and medicine just for you. Indeed, it would have left you in a position where neither Hamas nor Israel would care if you starved. Do you suppose the people picking food out of garbage dumps are Hamas activists? On the contrary (from the article quoted in the OP):

Large numbers of Palestinians are unable to afford the high prices of food being smuggled through the Hamas-controlled tunnels to the Strip from Egypt and last week were confronted with the suspension of UN food and cash distribution as a result of the siege.​

That's the trouble with sanctions, the people who deserve them most are the last to feel any effect. If you could make sure that only terrorists ate garbage, that would be great.

The Palestinians, OTOH, came out in droves to vote for an internationally recognized terrorist group in what all outside observers said was a free and fair election.

I note that in the last elections Hamas got 44% of the vote (3% more than Fatah) with 74% of the population voting. Oh, wait, I mean 74% of the adult population voting.

 

[Darth Rotor]

is it officialy a War? not sure, i see it as a war yes.

Yes, it seems to be a form of armed political conflict at the moment, which does not seem to have been blessed as "an official war" by the international community. Can you suggest why that might be?

how do you think its great Hamas was elected?

Because they got the most votes and the election was as open and fair as need be to reflect the will of the Pals who supported various parties. I think that's great. It's the whole spread of representational government at work.

A vote is supposed to be open and fair. As I read it, the EU observers found it fair enough, so whoever got the most votes won. That is good.

i can somehow understand they did it, but i never found it a good idea.
Or is it because now that the majority of the poeple voted for hamas, we can collectively punish them and point the fingers at the election results?

No. Please stop with the strawman silliness. It's like Americans: you get the government you deserve, by how you vote or don't vote. I actually laughed with glee when the vote came in, not over the vote, but over the immediate reaction of horror in Washington and Israel over the result. Part of Bush's whole political message included this spread of democracy deal. Well, democracy spread. Quit whinging.

yes sad enough some paelstinians seem to have been happy with the atacks.
but atleast you point out that it was prolly not all of them. i even doubt that it was the majority of them.

Don't know.

Terrorists think the way some do here. they are those that go an punish large groups of not selected people mainly just based on nationality and punish them / kill them because they feel unfair treated by the victims Government.

I don't think you understand why a terrorist act is chosen as a tool.

the blockade is not hindering Hamas or other terrorists, just like in Iraq, it is the innocent civilians that are punished with such a blockade.

Really? Well, if it not hindering Hamas, what's the problem? Surely they aren't incomptent to govern in Gaza. Your bait and switch isn't working. The government has a responsibility to its citizens to look after their interestes. Is Hamas doing that in its relations with other governments, or not?

Why did they elect hamas? i doubt it was becuase Hamas rejects a 2 state solution. i think it was more a protests against fatah.

I think you are on to something there.

Hamas was also known for theyr social aid inside Palestina (no i dont want to color them a good group) and was also known for theyr fight against corruption.

So was the Taliban, good against corruption.

i think those points was far more important than the Hamas goals. i think it was a stupid decision.

Next election, I suppose the people can vote for someone else, then.

but what other partys was there to vote for?

About 11 others. See my reply to Dr A. But if you want to establish the problem as between Fatah and Hamas, well, you are right back to the same problems America has with its parties. It's part of the fun of democracy.

DR