Skyline Mall - Hanjour's VFR Reference?

[Senenmut]

Have you studied the FDR to see why the plane climbed? What is your point? Why does it matter?

I tried to explain in a heavy jet (or any plane) during decent if you have excess energy, you can speed up, climb, or go faster! Hani climbed with his energy, then he started back down. So? What does it mean to you or 9/11 truth? I can answer that! Nothing.

The Mineta junk has nothing to do with 9/11 events. Only 9/11 truth has been dumb enough to come up with dirt dumb ideas of what the Mineta testimony has to do with their made up junk ideas.

Please explain in a Minteta thread why you have new stuff to prove something besides repeating stuff that is not valid to support 9/11 truth, and did not affect 9/11 one bit.

I have never heard a rational explanation on Mineta in one concise sentence or paragraph. Pure junk, and it is really a red flag to show someone has no clue about 9/11 when they mention Mineta with some stupid 9/11 truth conclusion, story, or idea. Please take your new earth shattering Mineta junk and post in a Mineta thread. Or join p4tf and they will agree with just about any wild idea you can manufacture by twisting and quote mining anything about 9/11.

i was just wondering why he didnt just dive at 1332 53 marker intead of going up 1700 feet to do a loop to decend 1700 feet.
if you have a link for the fdr data send it.
mineta is listing a series of events for us. the 0926 start time for cheneys quote is debateable. cheny being there at that time is also debateable.
all im looking at is the sequece of events and the 36 min difference of crash time for 77 and 93. you guys are saying cheney was referring to flight 93. i disagree.

 

[dtugg]

Sorry, you are wrong. You have no evidence whatsoever except for Mineta's testimony which has been proven to be inaccurate. Hell, IIRC, the guy even said that he ordered the FAA to ground all flights before the planes even hit the WTC. He is old and was recalling events that happened two years before. His memory didn't serve him correctly.

 

[Reheat]

I'll tell you what Senenmut, why don't you draw up the time line for AA77's arrival coinciding with Mineta's testimony and prove your point with math.

The information you need is all in recent threads. It should not be difficult to make it all work out to fit with what your point might be.

While you're at it, please tell us what you think the "orders" were.

Oh, and while we're at it, have you ever done a 10 degree dive from 7000' in ANY aircraft? How 'bout something like a B757? Ever done a 20 degree dive from altitude? What kind of dive angle would have been needed for the aircraft to dive from where the turn began?

 

[beachnut]

i was just wondering why he didnt just dive at 1332 53 marker intead of going up 1700 feet to do a loop to decend 1700 feet.
if you have a link for the fdr data send it.
mineta is listing a series of events for us. the 0926 start time for cheneys quote is debateable. cheny being there at that time is also debateable.
all im looking at is the sequece of events and the 36 min difference of crash time for 77 and 93. you guys are saying cheney was referring to flight 93. i disagree.

There are a few fringe pilots with nut case ideas about 9/11 and they propose diving from 7000 feet at short distance. They have no theories or clue what happen on 9/11 and sell their implications of lies on DVD to people who lack knowledge on 9/11 just like the cofounder of p4t Balsamo who can’t do physics or math to save his non-theories and other nut case ideas.

Why would you dive from 7000 feet, what is the angle? How fast would you be at impact?

When someone brings up Mineta it proves they lack knowledge on 9/11. Did you have something to say about Mineta?

Why did Hani stop descending and push up the throttles? Did you know he has already done this before, gone to 7000 feet and below and then back up, and this is his second time to go up and down? He had the engines below 40 percent to get down to 7000 feet the first time when he push up the throttles to 60 percent for a while and higher. Then he went up and then back down, and then up due to throttles; he pushed them up. Throttles up, plane goes up, throttles back, plane goes down. He must of finally figured out he was too high and did his turn (not a loop) to loose altitude and hit the Pentagon side.

A loop is in the vertical; Hani did not do a loop, or any high G stuff.

He started the turn at 3.3 NMs, not 10 NMs.

 

[BCR]

im looking at the picture 911 guy posted. he climbed 1700 feet only to do a loop to decend 1700 feet. after that he then dives 10 miles out into the pentagon. so at 10 miles out, cheney states "of coarse the orders still stand", the pilot then does a loop to decend to his previous altitude, then 10 miles out again does he dive. what do u have against mineta's testimony?

I'll do some numbers for you later based on the RO2 and radar data. Unlike some, I don't pull numbers out of my ass on the spur of the moment just to win points.

We have primary historical documents and data, which contradict Mineta's testimony. As far as AAL77 goes, those primary sources have pretty much accounted for most of what happened in regards to that flight. There are some details that still need to be resolved, and some never will be. This thread is one such detail which is, and will forever remain a speculative one. Hanjour is unfortunately the only one who knows why he did what he did. I simply wanted the thoughts of some highly qualified experts on the subject. Unlike you, I am no expert in every area of expertise required to understand that attack.

If you require the FDR, then AAL77.COM is a great place to find what you need. I have so much primary material posted there that we are still have not finished reviewing it all.

 

[BCR]

I think this is what is requested. A plot of the plane's distance from the White House. The loop begins at around 5-6 nautical miles away.

 

[gumboot]

911 files-
from your pic above, why do u think he went up about 1700 ft at about timeframe 1332 only to decent the same amount with the loop??

The climb was a result of an increase in thrust. The aircraft had been flying at about 25% thrust for most of its flight (cruise) but as they neared DC the hijackers increased thrust to 50% and then 75%. Increased thrust in level flight causes an increase in speed which generates more lift, thus causing the aircraft to climb.

The NTSB animation shows this, and also indicates the hijackers apply nose down input to try and arrest the climb. It may actually be one of the reasons for the go-around.

how many miles was the loop?

About six miles across at its widest point.

if i remember correct, didnt the loop start at 10 miles out, kinda around the famous "of coarse the orders still stand" line attributed to cheney at 10 miles out??

10 miles out from what, exactly? You do realise no one knew where AA77 was until it was six miles from the White House, yes?

 

[PhantomWolf]

But did anyone know that on the day?

I'm quite sure that Hani Honjour did.

 

[Corsair 115]

well, there was nothing stopping him going straight down into the pentagon either without the loop.

Diving an aircraft onto a target accurately can be rather hard. And the steeper the dive, the more difficult it gets. During WWII, dive bombing required highly skilled pilots; those without such flying skills used glide bombing instead (with a consequent drop in accuracy).

 

[chillzero]

I'm quite sure that Hani Honjour did.

Well, yes, but we were wondering whether people on the ground knew that this was were the plane was headed - with regard to a potential evacuation, or intercept :

If it's been said before I've missed it so forgive me.

Do we know for sure that the Pentagon was the primary target and not a secondary target of opportunity?

Yes, the Pentagon was always going to be a 9/11 target. It was selected by Bin Laden, right at the outset.

But did anyone know that on the day?

I don't think anyone knew, in order that something could have been done in advance on the impact.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Well, yes, but we were wondering whether people on the ground knew that this was were the plane was headed - with regard to a potential evacuation, or intercept :

I don't think anyone knew, in order that something could have been done in advance on the impact.

I think very few people on the ground realised what was going on at all. Washington ATC were the first to spot 77 as it came in and they initally mistook it for a military plane due it it's altitude and speed. That was only about 10 mins before it hit and they merely knew they had a fast moving unknown. By the time they had indentified it, they really wouldn't have had time to evacuate, even if they had figured out where it was going.

 

[chillzero]

I think very few people on the ground realised what was going on at all. Washington ATC were the first to spot 77 as it came in and they initally mistook it for a military plane due it it's altitude and speed. That was only about 10 mins before it hit and they merely knew they had a fast moving unknown. By the time they had indentified it, they really wouldn't have had time to evacuate, even if they had figured out where it was going.

I agree.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Yup, had those ideas years ago when the Citizen In Treefort still seemed to be worth spending my time on.
http://www.randi.org/forumlive/showpost.php?p=2121297&postcount=1211

Darth and Reheat probably don't realize that the Skyline Mall is a part of a larger building complex in Bailey's Crossing, comprised of One Skyline Tower, a 365ft tall building (4th tallest in DC/Arlington area), and a bunch of other tall buildings in excess of 20 stories high.

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&tab=wl&q=One Skyline Tower

Look at how the Pentagon leaps out of this picture. The many "large buildings" are not so notable. Pentagon is bloody huge. It's a great visual landmark.

By the way, are you referring to Bailey's Crossroads? On Route 7? About four miles south west of the Pentagon? Memories ...

I even suspected that the VFR might be responsible for that "S" manuever they did to the south of Dulles, just as they'd switched off the autopilot for the last time and started the initial descent from 8100 to 6900ft. You see, the plane turned towards the Tysons Corner for a minute or two. Tysons Corner also has some highrises and has a similar relative position to one of the bends in the Potomac as the Skyline does. But, as said, this is mere speculation on my part...

From 400', sure, a possibly easily identified and thus significant terrain feature. Tyson's Corner, also huge mall complex (first time I went there was in 1972) is, while spread out, not as clear a landmark as the Pentagon. Also, the road junction it abuts, 123/Rte 7, is a better visual landmark from the air than a given tall building unless the building stands well away from other buildings. I invite you to go to the satellite version of the linked map and play with the resolution/scale a bit. Zoom in and out. Move from Pentagon to Tyson's Corner on the same mag and see how much clearer the Pentagon is than the various buildings in the shopping center. Then do the same for Bailey's Crossroads.

From 5-10,000 feet, your tall building might not be so easy to pick out the first time you are looking for it.

Pentagon? A snap. The key is in using lateral references to "point" to your chosen landmark, which makes the Potomac a dead cinch for a guiding landmark, considering altitudes we are discussing for Hanjour.

What looks like a tall building to you on the ground may not look as tall from the air. The spread of it, width, on the ground also adds to or subtracts from ease of identification from the air. Unique color or reflective quality may make a building stand out.

As Reheat pointed out, the combination of building clusters and road networks tend to be used together to identify and confirm visual checkpoints when flying over densely developed terrain.

Hanjour had now many flights over the DC area? If none, he's got the problem of matching the road/building patterns he sees with what he expects to see.

Depending on his prep work, maybe easier or more difficult depending on the imagery he had to hand.

Now, with Google earth, much easier than then.

What the hell do I know? Only taught VNAV for two years.

Pentagon as alternative target: alternative to what?

well, there was nothing stopping him going straight down into the pentagon either without the loop.

For the love of Pete, please stop. Really. A loop?

*slams head on desk*

The word does not mean what you think it means.

A loop is a vertical maneuver in an airplane. There is no data to support the aircraft doing a loop. Hanjour wasn't that stupid. Any guesses as who might be?

DR