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Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

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DOC said:
I think the ACLU does some good work. It's just that they are obsessed and have a definite agenda in my opinion against any speck of religion in the public arena. Which would be against what Thomas Jefferson, who was a frequent church goer in the US capitol building, believed.
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DOC, do you believe that it requires religion to "think about people in need"?



*I'm certain I know what your answer will be, I simply want to see if you will be willing to contradict reality....again.
 
DOC said:
I think the ACLU does some good work. It's just that they are obsessed and have a definite agenda in my opinion against any speck of religion in the public arena. Which would be against what Thomas Jefferson, who was a frequent church goer in the US capitol building, believed.
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Thomas Jefferson was a deist who cut all the supernatural bit out of the bible as he didn't believe them, who nevertheless followed the bibles teachings on keeping slaves. He believed that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . ." and the phrase "separation of church and state" is generally traced to an 1802 letter by Thomas Jefferson.

Given the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom written by Jefferson says
Be it enacted by the General Assembly, That no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burdened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinion in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.
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I doubt very much he would support a compulsory prayer and would oppose "any speck of religion in the public arena"
 
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Lothian said:
I doubt very much he would support a compulsory prayer
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And, even if Jefferson did advocate woo; so freakin' what?

Arguments from authority are fallacious, even when the 'authority' is/was "intensely interested in theology, spirituality, and biblical study."

Woo is woo is woo is woo

ALL calls for 'compulsory prayer' are based on woo

Woo is bollocks

Get over it already

Oh, by the way, DOC, do you have any "evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth"?
 
Hokulele said:
And your opinion has been shown to be held contrary to the facts of the matter and as such, is completely worthless.
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No it hasn't, where did your post and source say the ACLU is not against a moment of silence in schools to think about people in need.
 
DOC said:
where did your post and source say the ACLU is not against a moment of silence in schools to think about people in need.
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Same place as your posts say that there is "evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth."?
 
DOC said:
I stand by my statement. In my opinion, the ACLU would be against schools having a moment of silence to think about people in need.
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Hokulele said:
And your opinion has been shown to be held contrary to the facts of the matter and as such, is completely worthless.
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Contrary to the facts, on the contrary

From the First Amendment Center website:

“The word ‘prayer’ is something that just ticks off a lot of people, but not to include prayer would be discriminatory against it,” said Virginia state Sen. Warren Barry, who sponsored the 2000 law.

The law makes the minute of silence mandatory for Virginia’s 1 million public school pupils and specifically lists prayer as one silent activity they might choose.

The law’s preamble states its purpose as assuring that “free exercise of religion be guaranteed within the schools.”

The ACLU sued on behalf of seven students and their families, arguing that the law cannot be reconciled with the court’s 1985 ruling.

“Although the statute permits students to engage in other forms of silent or meditative activity during the time period set aside in the classroom, the statute was enacted specifically to facilitate and encourage school prayer at that fixed time,” the ACLU wrote.

The 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled 2-1 in July that the law is constitutional. “Because the state imposes no substantive requirement during the silence, it is not religiously coercive,” the majority ruled...

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/news.aspx?id=4495
 
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Lothian said:
Thomas Jefferson was a deist who cut all the supernatural bit out of the bible as he didn't believe them, who nevertheless followed the bibles teachings on keeping slaves. He believed that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . ." and the phrase "separation of church and state" is generally traced to an 1802 letter by Thomas Jefferson.

Given the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom written by Jefferson says
I doubt very much he would support a compulsory prayer and would oppose "any speck of religion in the public arena"
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All of this was covered in this 57 page thread.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74960

I left over 400 posts in that thread, but post #61 goes into depth on the Separation of Church and state issue and how the non-Constitutional legal term "Separation of Church and State" came about. Also we go into the slavery issue in depth towards the end of that thread.
 
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DOC said:
No it hasn't, where did your post and source say the ACLU is not against a moment of silence in schools to think about people in need.
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DOC said:
Contrary to the facts, on the contrary

From the First Amendment Center website:

“The word ‘prayer’ is something that just ticks off a lot of people, but not to include prayer would be discriminatory against it,” said Virginia state Sen. Warren Barry, who sponsored the 2000 law.

The law makes the minute of silence mandatory for Virginia’s 1 million public school pupils and specifically lists prayer as one silent activity they might choose.

The law’s preamble states its purpose as assuring that “free exercise of religion be guaranteed within the schools.”

The ACLU sued on behalf of seven students and their families, arguing that the law cannot be reconciled with the court’s 1985 ruling.

“Although the statute permits students to engage in other forms of silent or meditative activity during the time period set aside in the classroom, the statute was enacted specifically to facilitate and encourage school prayer at that fixed time,” the ACLU wrote.

The 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled 2-1 in July that the law is constitutional. “Because the state imposes no substantive requirement during the silence, it is not religiously coercive,” the majority ruled...

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/news.aspx?id=4495
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DOC, your first post and second post are completely unrelated.

How do you go from: Opposing "facilitation of school sponsored prayer" to Opposing "thinking about people in need"?


You provided evidence that the ACLU opposes school prayer and not evidence that the ACLU opposes moments of silence for the purpose of "Thinking about people in need".

As such, you have failed to contradict Hokulele and her statement remains valid.
 
DOC said:
Contrary to the facts, on the contrary

From the First Amendment Center website:

“The word ‘prayer’ is something that just ticks off a lot of people, but not to include prayer would be discriminatory against it,” said Virginia state Sen. Warren Barry, who sponsored the 2000 law.

The law makes the minute of silence mandatory for Virginia’s 1 million public school pupils and specifically lists prayer as one silent activity they might choose.
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And DOC is proven wrong again.

How is this simply a moment of silence to think about people in need? What part of the phrase "state-mandated religious activity" do you continue to fail to understand?

If they had left off the list of silent things students may choose to do, I would be willing to bet you that the ACLU would have left the law unchallenged.
 
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cj.23 said:
http://www.aclufightsforchristians.com/ ???

Sounds pretty reasonable to me but I know nothing about them

cj x
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That is a good list, but sadly it will most likely fall on deaf ears. Several people have pointed DOC towards cases where the ACLU have defended Christians in freedom of speech and freedom of association issues in the past. DOC has bought into the distortions of Jay Sekulow and the ACLJ and seems to believe that the ACLU is nothing but a bunch of communists looking to outlaw Christianity.

However, this may be best split off to another thread in possibly Social Issues, as we are supposedly still waiting for evidence that the New Testament authors told the truth.
 
DOC said:
I doubt if he would say freedom of religion stops at the schoolhouse gates.
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How about you can have as much 'freedom of religion' as long as it doesn't impinge on anyone's 'freedom from religion'. Sound fair?

Anyhoo... this ain't the thread for discussing what you doubt/believe with regard to some famous dead guy - at least not until you quit faffing about and either
  1. provide evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

    or
  2. acknowledge and retract the unsubstantiated woo that is the OP

Thank you in advance
 
37 pages and still no evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.
So DOC, are you going to produce the evidence or not?
Just to be clear, your opening post has not been compelling enough for consideration, it's simply speculation.
Do you have anything else, or is this it?
 
Hokulele said:
And DOC is proven wrong again.

How is this simply a moment of silence to think about people in need? What part of the phrase "state-mandated religious activity" do you continue to fail to understand?

If they had left off the list of silent things students may choose to do, I would be willing to bet you that the ACLU would have left the law unchallenged.
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In a way, I'm glad your number one goal in your posts is to try to make me look bad (even if the facts don't lead to that conclusion) because it makes your posts uneven and not as clear to the readers as they could be.

And your phrase of state mandated religious activity is not relevant to the Virginia schools moment of silence (although that is what the ACLU wants people to believe). Students could look out the window for 60 seconds if they chose to as this CNN website points out:

"The state says the minute of silence does not violate the separation of church and state, because children may meditate or stare out the window for 60 seconds if they choose, so long as they are quiet. The court's action means the daily minute of silence will continue, and opponents are left with no immediate options to challenge it."

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/LAW/10/29/moment.silence/

And Chief Justice Rehnquist is quoted in the article saying that evidence was found that the moment of silence serves a secular purpose.
 
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MIKILLINI said:
37 pages and still no evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.
So DOC, are you going to produce the evidence or not?
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Is it really possible to leave 311 posts in a evidence thread without giving any evidence. That would be a miracle. See post #13 for my and answers.com definition of evidence.
 
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