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“Homoeopathy at Wellie Level”

Blue Wode

Graduate Poster
B
Joined
Feb 17, 2006
Messages
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Or in other words, "teaching responsible use of homeopathy on the farm":
http://www.hawl.co.uk/fliers/2008application.pdf

Here’s the main site which includes a ringing endorsement from Prince Charles:
http://www.hawl.co.uk/

And here’s the latest attempt to rally support from pet owners in an effort to have homeopathy prescribed for their pets (and therefore for farm animals as well) by non-veterinary surgeon homeopaths:
Are you aware that the British Veterinary Surgeons Act is currently under review? At present, by strict interpretation, homoeopathy given to animals by anyone other than a vet or an owner is illegal, no matter how well qualified the practitioner, (though an unqualified vet may give a homoeopathic remedy). In actual practice this is a grey area as so few vets are qualified in homoeopathy (about 250) and so many owners demanding homoeopathic or other alternative treatment (65% reported 2 years ago in a Vet magazine). There is a parliamentary committee looking into updating the Vet Surgeons Act (last done 1967) and they are inviting information and comment.

At present the rationale for excluding homoeopathy is that an animal cannot chose and must therefore be given the best treatment available. An interesting concept of judgement (conventional is best, even where there is no treatment and the animal is to be culled?) and one which can similarly be applied to babies and probably with a bit of thought, to children, volatile teenagers, the elderly and so on.

The homoeopathic vets face vicious attack (vets against voodoo web site) from their own profession and I am told that to influence the new Act into at least specifically including homoeopathy, with a breadth including suitably qualified lay practitioners, will need to come from owners.

More…

http://www.zeusinfoservice.com/Homeopathy/1.html
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Whatever next - a Foundation for Integrated Pets and Farm Animals?
 
Hi

So... let me get this straight... I have to PAY to get my dog's quantum chakra sinusoidal energies integrated and balanced or it's illegal?

That is so... COOL! Placebo effect works better when you sell it hard.

Oh - wait - the dog doesn't care... is there such a thing as a VICARIOUS placebo effect?
 
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Gagglegnash said:
{snip}
Oh - wait - the dog doesn't care... is there such a thing as a VICARIOUS placebo effect?
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In a sense, yes. It occurs when parents of very young children (unable to speak for themselves), and owners of animals, interpret the results.
 
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This is like an onion. There are just layers of stupid under the outer stupid. It's like a stupidgasm.
 
Wow. This talking-around-in-circles really made my head hurt. From here:

First of all, he doesn't give a cite, he just says "There are numerous trials", but he doesn't list them. And then he ropes in a quote about a hospital trial: hello? We're talking about animals here, not people? And he refers Dear Reader to a homeopathic textbook for the cites for the trials. Uh huh. :rolleyes: If there are reputable trial results out there, why not say so, up front, instead of forcing you to go to considerable trouble to locate a copy of an obscure specialist textbook?

However there is still considerable resistance to homeopathy within the veterinary world. This is based on two presumptions;

* There is no evidence for homeopathy.

In fact this is incorrect. There are numerous trials demonstrating its effectiveness mainly in humans but also in animals. On the farm side positive trials include the prevention of anal prolapse in pigs, mastitis in cattle, journey recovery time and meat quality in cattle arriving at the slaughter house, scours in calves, fertility in dairy cows, mastitis/metritis/agalactia syndrome in sows, piglet stillbirths and piglet weight gain. There has just been completed a major trial at the Bristol Homeopathic Hospital clearly showing an extremely positive response to homeopathy involving over 5000 patients who had sought homeopathy primarily because conventional medicine had failed them. Unsurprisingly no conventional medical publication would print the trial I wonder why? For full details of the veterinary trials in homeopathy see “A Textbook of Veterinary Homeopathy” by Saxton and Gregory.
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And then he admits that homeopathic medicines have none of the active ingredient--but he just skates over that inconvenient fact and goes on to ramble about generalities.

* Homeopathic medicines use the active substance in extreme dilution.

It is highly likely that when you give a homeopathic pill there is none of the original “drug” left in it. Thus according to many conventional medics homeopathy is impossible, whatever any trials say. This is an unfortunate attitude because it implies that those who criticise obviously understand everything about medicine and how the body works, otherwise how could they make such a statement? I would contend that simply because we humans do not understand how something works is no proof that it doesn’t. If we understand disease so well why can we not stop bovine TB, or control Mad Cow Disease except through gross slaughter? Why are epidemics of arthritis, autoimmune disease, cancer and heart disease raging in us (and our animals) if conventional medicine had the answers? I would be interested to hear any evidence demonstrating a lower incidence of mastitis and other diseases of the dairy cow now compared to 25 years ago despite the huge quantities and cost of conventional drugs poured into our farms. Looking around the world one realises that humans know very little about most things – monkeys with guns is an apt description – and for humans not to understand something scientifically suggests it may possibly be the way forward! Do the people who would like to see vets practising homeopathy removed from the Royal College believe in gravity? As yet our scientists can’t explain that either. With the advent of quantum physics the action of highly diluted solutions is not necessarily a mystery – see the work of Lionel Milgrom. It is about time medicine realised that E=Mc2 happened nearly 100 years ago, and we are not creatures of nuts, bolts and receptors, but of energy. Conventional medicine must leave the Newtonian age if it is to survive.
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I especially enjoy the way he invokes quantum physics. And the strawman about gravity is fun, too.

And, when conventional medicine "leaves the Newtonian age", doesn't it then become--magic? Or something?

Classic.
 
There has just been completed a major trial at the Bristol Homeopathic Hospital clearly showing an extremely positive response to homeopathy involving over 5000 patients who had sought homeopathy primarily because conventional medicine had failed them. Unsurprisingly no conventional medical publication would print the trial I wonder why?
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Anyone who has to invoke the Spence study as "evidence for homeopathy" is on very shaky ground.

Actually, there is plenty of "evidence for homeopathy", just none that shows "evidence of effectiveness for homeopathy"
 
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Actually, the review of the VSA seems to be pretty much stalled. However, I would strongly support any move to end the ludicrous concept that homoeopathy is part of "veterinary medicine" and can thus only be prescribed by vets. As a colleague said, "if you think that nailing a dead chicken to the door of a horse's stall is therapy, does it matter whether it is a qualified vet who does the nailing?"

The fact is that the inclusion of homoeopathy among things that can only be done by vets is absolutely pernicious. It allows all the whackjob homoeopathy proponents to claim that homoeopathy works in animals, because it is recognised and regulated by the RCVS. And it allows and encourages delusional vets to advertise and promote homoeopathy as legitimate, and so give it more credibility.

The RCVS currently has a get-out for faith healing for animals. They have secured some sort of assurance from a faith healers' association that their members will only perform faith healing on animals which have been examined by a veterinary surgeon, and when that vet is content to allow the faith healing to happen.

If a similar assurance were given by the lay homoeopath societies, combined with an assurance that their members will not undermine the vet's case management or advise against giving the pet prescribed medications, I see no reason at all not to let them carry on with their magic water.

Rolfe.
 
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Rolfe said:
Actually, the review of the VSA seems to be pretty much stalled.
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Does anyone know if there has been any progress with the review? Because in May 2008 the Homeopathy At Wellie Level (HAWL) group produced a template of a campaign letter along with suggestions for a variety of influential people and organisations to which it could be sent,
http://www.hawl.co.uk/articles/Vetsurgeonsactletter.pdf

and the Alliance for Registered Homeopaths (ARH) (http://www.a-r-h.org/ ) is currently carrying details of the HAWL campaign on its news sidebar, including this flyer:
We have a unique opportunity to influence amendment of the Act, and make it legal for suitably trained homeopaths, to treat animals…

-snip-

…request for it to be legally acceptable for qualified homeopaths with suitable knowledge of animal husbandry, to treat animals, thus providing animals with the same healthcare options as their owners.

http://www.a-r-h.org/NewsandEvents/Veterinary Act Flyer.pdf
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More from the ARH here, including the template letter:
http://www.a-r-h.org/NewsandEvents/Template Vet letter.pdf

Also, if you click on the 2009 HAWL courses (see here http://www.hawl.co.uk/ ) you’ll see that organic farmer, HRH, is playing a leading role in enabling them to take place.
 
What is needed by the VSA is a clear statement that the VSA believes homeopathy is "faith healing" exactly like casting out of demons, and is therefore not part of the recognised veterinary arsenal (progression?). And importantly, that it will not work with homeopaths at all.

Further, the owner is to be given the clear option: faith healing OR veterinary response, but not both. If the owner wished to indulge in faith-healing in preference to standard vet treatment then fine. Of course, they need also know that will leave them open to legal prosecution for cruelty and neglect charges if a subsequent vet visit (of their own volition or at the request of the appropriate legal body like the RSPCA) reveals that said faith healing was responsible for an animal's poor condition or death.

The reasoning is simple. The current situation allows the OWNER, usually ill-informed and easily swayed, to determine the animal's medical treatment. So they can choose to have faith healing, vet medicine, or both. That leaves the window wide open for the homeopaths to continue to piggy-back claims of cure on what is clearly veterinary response (i.e. the crowing rooster claiming credit for the dawn). This is a common practice, not only in veterinary medicine but human medicine too. Homeopaths play up hard this "complementary" approach, and then try to claim all the successes while casting any failure back on the "allopathic" medical treatment. It's a win-win for them...whilever they are allowed to continue piggy-backing.

However if that option of dual treatment is removed, the owner has to choose wisely UP FRONT how their ailing animal is treated. And since they will likely have a vested interest in the animal (as a farm producer or as a pet), they will much more likely opt for the treatment with the higher likelihood of success. Should they choose a homeopath and it goes wrong, not only the owner but the homeopath as well will stand alone as responsible. Plus there is the public obrium of neglect charges for both, etc.
 
Gagglegnash said:
So... let me get this straight... I have to PAY to get my dog's quantum chakra sinusoidal energies integrated and balanced or it's illegal?
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No, it's illegal for someone who isn't a properly qualified and registered vet to balance and integrate your dog's quantum chakra sinusoidal energies. The legislation doesn't force them to charge you for it.
 
Goshawk said:
With the advent of quantum physics the action of highly diluted solutions is not necessarily a mystery – see the work of Lionel Milgrom. It is about time medicine realised that E=Mc2 happened nearly 100 years ago, and we are not creatures of nuts, bolts and receptors, but of energy. Conventional medicine must leave the Newtonian age if it is to survive.
Click to expand...

I especially enjoy the way he invokes quantum physics. And the strawman about gravity is fun, too.
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And I think the invocation of relativity in the context of homoeopathy may be a first!
 
Rolfe said:
If a similar assurance were given by the lay homoeopath societies, combined with an assurance that their members will not undermine the vet's case management or advise against giving the pet prescribed medications...
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I think I see a problem.
 
Mojo said:
And I think the invocation of relativity in the context of homoeopathy may be a first!
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I'd love to see one of them explain that credibly, in full, in front of a bunch of scientists, on live TV.

I can dream, can't I?? :)
 
Mojo said:
And I think the invocation of relativity in the context of homoeopathy may be a first!
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I love the fact that they try to make homeopathy sound like a new advancement in science based on the latest findings. But Hahnemann came up with the idea back in the 18th century and there hasn't been a single advancement in the field since then.

Steve S.
 
I may not be reading the veterinary press as carefully as I should, but I've not heard anything more about a new VSA. I think the government has a lot more pressing things to think about right now and in the foreseeable future.

Except, I think the annual subscription for the BVVS web hosting is about due. I must make sure it gets paid.

Rolfe.
 
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