Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

[zooterkin]

Well if everyone in the world 1) loved their neighbor and 2)loved their enemy, what do you think the world would be like. 3)and the 10 commandments teach people right from wrong. The knowledge of right and wrong is not innate. If you tear down the 10 commandments from the classroom walls and a kid does not learn right and wrong at his home, it's my belief you're going to have problems somewhere down the line.

From an atheist's perspective, the existence of the 10 commandments is just one of many indications that a sense of right and wrong is apparently innate; they were written by men. Have you never heard a child say, "That's not fair!"? Now, the particulars of exactly what is right or wrong may vary, as is clear if you compare mores and laws between societies separated both historically and geographically (even between two different Christian societies), but the basic idea is present, and doesn't need to be imposed by religion.

I would have to disagree. You are your dog's god and its commandment is thou shall please my god (master).

According to whom? Would you like to explain it to my dog?

And would you say dogs and wolfs in the wild are loving and moral.

Are you saying they are immoral?

And Pope John Paul II believed there will be animals in heaven so I'm not so sure about your dog has no soul statement.

I am. But then, I'm pretty sure neither you nor I have one either.

 

[DOC]

ARe you saying that because the 10 commandements, which were not written by jesus, were removed from classrooms in 1962, that this is the cause of the school shooting epidemic of the 90-2000s*? and that this some how is evidence that proves Jesus rose from the dead 2000 years ago?

Actually I've since read it was prayer that was removed from public schools in 1962. When most schools actually stopped posting of the 10 commandments is a little vague. The Supreme court did rule against the posting of the 10 commandments in public schools in a Kentucky case in 1980 brought by (surprise, surprise) the ACLU (which was founded by a former communist by the way).

From the ACLU of Kentucky website:

"When the Court last considered this issue in 1980 – in a challenge also brought by the ACLU of Kentucky -- it reversed a lower court ruling that had upheld a state law requiring the posting of the Ten Commandments in public school classrooms. Since that time, the ACLU and others, acting on behalf of local communities and religious leaders, have successfully challenged Ten Commandments postings and monuments in Alabama, Georgia, Indiana, Maryland, Nebraska, Ohio, Tennessee, West Virginia and elsewhere."

http://aclu-ky.org/content/view/18/

Notice in the quote above it says acting on behalf of religious leaders. That's a joke, the vast majority religious leaders in this country would be for the posting of the commandments in the schools.

___

In answer to your first question. Yes, I believe it is "one" of the reasons.

And in answer to your second question I'll say I believe it is "partial" evidence for the truth of the teachings of the bible... And you're using the word prove (proof) again in an inappropriate manner.

 

[DOC]

I want to add, that my dog is very loving and moral-- but she has no soul, no gods, and no commandments. It appears that some evolved creatures are able to be perfectly loving and moral without magic books or invisible saviors.

I added the bold font above.

So you believe your dog (and I assume a human being) has no soul but is moral.

Is that possible??

 

[zooterkin]

the ACLU (founded by a former communist by the way)

What a fine attempt at an ad hom, I'm glad you seem to have grasped joobz's explanation.

Notice in the quote above it says acting on behalf of religious leaders. That's a joke, the vast majority religious leaders in this country would be for the posting of the commandments in the schools.

Are you really that hard of thinking? Do the minority of religious leaders, perhaps those who are not Christians, not have any say? Note that it doesn't say how many religious leaders (not everyone is as obsessed by numbers as you appear to be).

And in answer to your second question I'll say I believe it is "partial" evidence for the truth of the teachings of the bible... And you're using the word prove (proof) again in an inappropriate manner.

Somewhat less inappropriate than your use of the word 'evidence' in this thread's title, I would suggest.

 

[zooterkin]

So you believe your dog (and I assume humans) has no soul but is moral.

Is that possible??

What exactly do you mean by 'moral'? In what possible way is it dependent on the existence of something undetectable?


ETA: I hate to break it to you, DOC, but not only do us nasty atheists not believe in God, but we don't (generally) believe in souls, either. Despite that, we seem to be just as moral as any other group. Possibly more so, if the figures about atheists in prison are to be believed.

 

[Hokulele]

Yes, if those posters are of the 10 commandments. The ten commandments were allowed in the public classrooms before 1962 and metal detectors, security, and cameras were unheard of before then.

Please present the actual statistics regarding school violence then and now. I would assume that this should include all incidents resulting in harm to students, and not just the sensational ones. For an even better overview, please include school violence statistics for other nations, Christian and non. Japan might be an interesting case study to compare and contrast to the information cj.23 has already offered.

In other words, you wouldn't happen to be making numbers up again, would you?

 

[joobz]

Actually I've since read it was prayer that was removed from public schools in 1962. When most schools actually stopped posting of the 10 commandments is a little vague. The Supreme court did rule against the posting of the 10 commandments in public schools in a Kentucky case brought by (surprise, surprise) the ACLU (founded by a former communist by the way) in 1980.

OUCH, Stop it with the non-sequitors.

Notice in the quote above it says acting on behalf of religious leaders. That's a joke, the vast majority religious leaders in this country would be for the posting of the commandments in the schools.

So you must be in the majority to be a religious leader? It's impossible to have a Imam, Brahma, ... be religous leaders?

In answer to your first question. Yes, I believe it is "one" of the reasons.

Then you believe very silly things.
Can you explain to me why the 10 commandments or praying in schools didn't prevented lynchings?

Let me remind you, we have access to historical information. Your idea of a past america which was more moral than we are today is a myth.

And in answer to your second question I'll say I believe it is "partial" evidence for the truth of the teachings of the bible... And you're using the word prove (proof) again in an inappropriate manner.

So the presenting of evidence to support an argument isn't "trying to prove" it?

ETA: BTW, make sure you add the crimes in the name of christ to the tally list in your evidence list.

 

[Hokulele]

Your idea of a past america which was more moral than we are today is a myth.

You must remember, DOC's concept of morality may very well be quite different from the one you or I subscribe to. After all, he has said in the past that men must be the moral "head of the household", which certainly implies that men are innately more moral than women. Thank goodness DOC isn't allowed to be the morality police in modern society.

 

[Lothian]

Actually I've since read it was prayer that was removed from public schools in 1962. When most schools actually stopped posting of the 10 commandments is a little vague. The Supreme court did rule against the posting of the 10 commandments in public schools in a Kentucky case in 1980 brought by (surprise, surprise) the ACLU (which was founded by a former communist by the way).

From the ACLU of Kentucky website:

"When the Court last considered this issue in 1980 – in a challenge also brought by the ACLU of Kentucky -- it reversed a lower court ruling that had upheld a state law requiring the posting of the Ten Commandments in public school classrooms. Since that time, the ACLU and others, acting on behalf of local communities and religious leaders, have successfully challenged Ten Commandments postings and monuments in Alabama, Georgia, Indiana, Maryland, Nebraska, Ohio, Tennessee, West Virginia and elsewhere."

http://aclu-ky.org/content/view/18/

Notice in the quote above it says acting on behalf of religious leaders. That's a joke, the vast majority religious leaders in this country would be for the posting of the commandments in the schools.

___

In answer to your first question. Yes, I believe it is "one" of the reasons.

And in answer to your second question I'll say I believe it is "partial" evidence for the truth of the teachings of the bible... And you're using the word prove (proof) again in an inappropriate manner.

Doc.

When Kentucky had Thou shall not kill on their school walls the murder rate was 8.8 per 100,000. now it is 4.8.

When Kentucky had Thou shall not steal on their school walls the burglary, larceny and car crime rate was 3,167 per 100,000 now it is 2,518.

Since the 10 commandments have been removed Kentucky citizens have become far more moral and Kentucky a much safer and better place to live. Thank you for researching this for us.

Link

 

[joobz]

I added the bold type above.

So you believe your dog (and I assume humans) has no soul but is moral.

Is that possible??

To answer your question, we must understand what you are asking.

1.) morality is a code of acceptable conduct by which one behaves, especially in social groups. While inherently arbitrary, for our purposes, we will further refine the concept to moral behavior with conduct that includes self-less acts which benefit weaker members (or members in need) of a social group.

2.) A soul is a concept of a consciousness that is seperate from the physical mind and can persist beyond death. This concept has never been observed nor does any current evidence suggest that such a concept is required to explain human consciousness. Therefor, it remains a relatively imaginary convention.

So your question then becomes:

Can a dog behave selflessly to help another animal in need without possessing an imaginary concept?

I'd say, yes.

 

[DOC]

To cj.23,

Let me think about your post about prayer in UK schools. It might take a whole book to deal with that subject and the subject of prayer in US schools completely.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

I like in the UK, where School Prayer is not just allowed, it's required by law.

Thought it was just Scandinavia.

Isn't this a breach of human rights somehow? You know, freedom from being forced to follow a religion?

 

[zooterkin]

Isn't this a breach of human rights somehow? You know, freedom from being forced to follow a religion?

No; the act of worship is (or at least, was) required to be held, but pupils may abstain from taking part.

 

[DOC]

Doc.

When Kentucky had Thou shall not kill on their school walls the murder rate was 8.8 per 100,000. now it is 4.8.

When Kentucky had Thou shall not steal on their school walls the burglary, larceny and car crime rate was 3,167 per 100,000 now it is 2,518.

Since the 10 commandments have been removed Kentucky citizens have become far more moral and Kentucky a much safer and better place to live. Thank you for researching this for us.

Link

There could be a lot of reasons for the change in property crimes such as a better economy. But I wouldn't say they are much safer. There is a big increase in rapes and personal assaults which you didn't mention.

And I doubt if Kentucky had any security guards, metal detectors or video cameras in the schools before 1980.

 

[zooterkin]

There could be a lot of reasons for the change in property crimes such as a better economy. But I wouldn't say they are much safer. There is a big increase in rapes and personal assaults which you didn't mention.

And I doubt if Kentucky had any security guards, metal detectors or video cameras in the schools before 1980.

So you admit your previous comments were completely without foundation?

You will notice that but you certainly can't say

You might say that, I couldn't possibly comment.

 

[Hokulele]

There is a big increase in rapes and personal assaults which you didn't mention.

Well, duh. Rape and personal assault aren't prohibited by the 10 Commandments.

 

[DOC]

So you admit your previous comments were completely without foundation?

Non Sequitur.

 

[DOC]

Well, duh. Rape and personal assault aren't prohibited by the 10 Commandments.

Not true, the commandments in both Exodus and Deuteronomy say you shall not covet anything that belongs to thy neighbor. Rape is coveting your neighbor's body. It is also adultery on a married person. And personal assaults are wanting to steal the peace of mind and security that a person possesses.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments

 

[zooterkin]

Non Sequitur.

That's another way of saying it, yes.

 

[joobz]

There could be a lot of reasons for the change in property crimes such as a better economy. But I wouldn't say they are much safer.

Ding ding ding!!! You are correct. There are a lot of reasons for all of these effects. Some of them clearly much more impactful than others. What you'd need to demonstrate is that the 10 commandments in schools is one of the most important factors.

But since you already explained that the economy has a greater effect, then I think we pretty much dissmiss your point.

There is a big increase in rapes and personal assaults which you didn't mention.

Interesting thing about rapes; women typically didn't report them in the 60's and 70s out of shame and fear of reprisal. Remember that "She was asking for it.." or Slut shaming were quite common defense tactics.

I wonder where our historically second class citizen role for women was derived from? Such a source would have to be considered rather amoral by today's standards.

And I doubt if Kentucky had any security guards, metal detectors or video cameras in the schools before 1980.

Technology wasn't really that easily available then.

Remember that during this same time, we've set up policies that prevent teachers from spanking/swatting children who missbehave in class. Perhaps you'd also like to argue that we should go back to having teachers beat our kids?