The Zeitgeist Movement... why not?

dudalb said:
THe "Half Life" reference is of the biggest WTFs I have seen in a while.
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But not the Doom or Quake references? Must not be a Half-Life fan.
Games are a good start because they are things many are familiar with. Of course, there are also AI systems in medicine, industry, aviation, transpiration, communication, government surveillance. Do you doubt any of that?
 
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paximperium said:
Well, it does show the ignorance about specifically what is specifically meant by Artificial Intelligence Vs. Bots.

Bots are a subset of AIs, very simple programed routines designed to act a specific way in a program. No one in their right mind would call these bots intelligent and Mix is just playing a semantic game when he is not able to refute a point.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_intelligence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_game_bot
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Great, you can do a google search. Read those links throughly.
 
AWPrime said:
The massive amount of automation and given everybody what they want, leads to an extremely high amount of power consumption (per person).
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What is the average amount of power consumption per person now? It would be the same as in a RBE, agreed?
Thus there needs to be far more infrastructure per person then the current system.
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Just to clarify, do you mean because of the amount of automation plus the power consumption of the earths population we would need more infrastructure?
And renewable energy has a far lower energy profit then fossil fuels.
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When you say energy profit are you talking about money? There would be no money in this system so thats why I ask...
Thanks for trying to find the weaknesses in a rational fashion. I honestly appreciate it.:)
 
You know, some comments have a hostile tone so I want to say that I'm not anyones enemy here. Its just discussion. Although the drama has entertainment value, I find the constructive talk more interesting. If you don't like what I say or you find the topic juvenile, please refrain from being involved.
The hard technical questions are particularly interesting for me right now. The faster I find good reasons why a society thats not based on competition is a bad idea, the faster I can go on to the next idea. But if people are saying that everything is alright right now as things are, I find that strange and I question that. Who here thinks that the current capitalistic society we live in is the absolute best possible idea? Who thinks that it will remain that way forever? If it wont remain that way forever then what would the next one look like? Do we choose from ways tried before? There are about fore or five choices there and they all have similar issues to the one we are in now and to each other. Thoughts?
 
Mr_Mix said:
Tell me what you think about capitalism and our consumer culture. Are you at ease? Do you think its the best way to go now and for the next, say, two hundered years?
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I am at ease with the system we've got. The free-market works. Your system is unfeasible and unproven. Let me know when the first Venus city is built. I want results, not cheap words.
 
Well said. If a VP demo city is ever built I'm sure you'll hear about it:) But just for clarity. Its not my system. I feel like I'm being picky but oh well. There are a lot of people claiming it's a system that I own so I just want to make it clear its not mine.

Thanks
 
Mr_Mix said:
Tell me what you think about capitalism and our consumer culture. Are you at ease? Do you think its the best way to go now and for the next, say, two hundered years?
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Yes and yes. And I will despise and oppose anyone who wants to replace it with a repressive collectivist fairy-tale.
 
Mr_Mix said:
What is the average amount of power consumption per person now? It would be the same as in a RBE, agreed?
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20000 kW·h/year for temperate climate. And that is just the energy consumed by the home. The energy requirements to build all that you buy and the energy requirements to keep maintain everything is several orders larger. And that part is going to explode in the VP scenario.

Just to clarify, do you mean because of the amount of automation plus the power consumption of the earths population we would need more infrastructure?
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All those machines must work somewhere and have their own transport (and other) systems.

When you say energy profit are you talking about money?
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No. Energy generated - energy investment = energy profit.
 
Mr Mix, you should check out the book Walden Two by BF Skinner. It is a fictionalized idealized cashless community. The book has inspired people to create their own cashless community. If you are so passionate about eschewing capitalism, you should try to live in one. More info at wikipedia (search "Twin Oaks Community").
 
"It is a fictionalized idealized cashless community."

Cashless community would be a utopia and utopia always fails. Utopia stops progress and development. There is no change in utopia. Nobody would work in an utopia and that would be just wrong. Utopia is not realism.

"The book has inspired people to create their own cashless community."

And how many cashless communities have work? What is life and a cashless community utopia?
 
"If you are so passionate about eschewing capitalism, you should try to live in one. More info at wikipedia (search "Twin Oaks Community")."

Ah so Twin Oaks Community is a back to nature utopia? So Twin Oaks Community says that there should be no change, technology, science and development? Humans should just go back living in nature just like they used to live in the stone age? No thanks. Utopia is a myth. Utopia is wrong.
 
Utopia also ignores human nature and the fact that humans are different. Utopia really would be a horrible and a bad place.
 
Well lets see. So what is being written is that a high tech future society doesn't need specialized knowledge because it is high tech? This really doesn't make logical sense. The fact that anyone of the proposed mechanisms requires specialized knowledge should be obvious to must people. Also I love how the flaw in the AI was simply ignored. You know the one that deals with fundamental chaos in any deterministic system.

I also completely love the hand waving of the Austrian school of economic thought, because it is old. Well it is pretty accurate actually, and people of this economic school were able to notice that the economy would go in this direction. Not because of "evil capitalism", but because of manipulations of the system.

So what have we established here....

1.) Human competition cannot be eliminated.
2.) Social Stratification cannot be eliminated.
3.) The elimination of "money" does not remove resource costs.
4.) These resource costs still make much of the sci-fi tech of the Venus Project far out of the reach of human society, until they become cost effective.
5.) Specialization is necessary the more advanced a society is, and by eliminating it; progress will stagnate.
6.) Fundamental chaos within deterministic systems makes an AI running an entire society both impractical, and doomed to catastrophic failure.

Anyone else have some we can throw unto the list?
 
moon1969 said:
"If you are so passionate about eschewing capitalism, you should try to live in one. More info at wikipedia (search "Twin Oaks Community")."

Ah so Twin Oaks Community is a back to nature utopia? So Twin Oaks Community says that there should be no change, technology, science and development? Humans should just go back living in nature just like they used to live in the stone age? No thanks. Utopia is a myth. Utopia is wrong.
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Making up weird aspects of a utopia doesn't really help anything, especially when you're telling a guy pushing a techno-utopia that he wants a stone-age utopia.
 
Mr_Mix said:
Well said. If a VP demo city is ever built I'm sure you'll hear about it:) But just for clarity. Its not my system. I feel like I'm being picky but oh well. There are a lot of people claiming it's a system that I own so I just want to make it clear its not mine.

Thanks
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What is it about TVP that makes you think it possibly could work?
 
Wouldn't it be so cool if it could work though? Robots would do all the work and everybody could sit around and smoke weed all day. Sweet!
 
AWPrime said:
20000 kW·h/year for temperate climate. And that is just the energy consumed by the home. The energy requirements to build all that you buy and the energy requirements to keep maintain everything is several orders larger. And that part is going to explode in the VP scenario.

All those machines must work somewhere and have their own transport (and other) systems.

No. Energy generated - energy investment = energy profit.
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Why would it explode in a VP system?

The machines wouldn't need transport...

The energy profit of renewable energy sources are very good in most cases.
 
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