First of all, and just in case it is not clear enough, I have to say that I sympathize with the ZM, still I can see their flaws and so this thread is about their proposals, similar proposals (my own ideas of how to solve some of the problems I see in their proposals), asking about why they are not possible (other than "because it is impossible, unreal or utopic") and about why it is so easy to be skeptic about the supernatural or religious stuff but we never question the foundations of our own society.
Firstly; I would like to apologize to everyone on this thread for my statements. I am too influenced by family history, and while that is no excuse; it does give me pause to consider why I would let myself get so angry over things. I will keep it under control.
I'm glad to read this! And please allow me to apologize if you feel I insulted you in anyway, it has never been my intention. You should know that personally I have zero issues with you, and I really appreciate that we can keep this at an intellectual level, calling names and spitting emotional babbling (like those two boys above) is very boring and nonproductive. Its like dealing with highschool "I know it all and you are an idiot" adolescents.
For those who are not done with me, I would like to approach some issues that I have with the implementations of the Venus Project.
Welcome back. Lets see.
The problem I have is that you cannot have a system that on the one hand claims to value the individual while one the other hand claiming that that individual owes something to the collective. From my perspective it is an undue burden on those whose only crime was being born. I should not have to put my own well-being at risk for another. If I choose to contribute to the well being of another, and I do, that is my choice; and my choice alone.
Interesting way to put it. Yes, when it is assumed that just because you born you are in debt with society one can feel the oppressing and the nausea. To my mind it brings images about Cubans and citizens of the USSR, unable to think for themselves and much less speak about what they really feel because of fear about being heard and reported to the authorities. In such societies, because it is prohibited (by design) to doubt about the leaders or the foundation of social order. I believe this is why you got upset and I'm following you, it is IMPORTANT that if a new social order can be established, it most be based on respect for personal freedoms.
I will not discuss here what those freedoms represent, or how can they be achieved, as this alone could be subject of endless discussions, but let's just say that any individual living in a well designed society should not feel this oppression that you are talking about.
On the other hand I have to stress that you can be as controlled as those living under any oppressive government without even noticing it. That's the GENIUS about the current system, people believe they are free, they are as controlled as in the most oppressive regime, but this is TRANSPARENT for them! Here, let me use your own words to illustrate a small issue I have with current society:
"claiming that that individual owes something to the collective"
In current society, just because you have born you owe your very right to survive to the collective. You will live your life in a perpetual debt, you don't have a place to live, nothing to eat, you even owe your most precious resource of all, your health. Now it is not all wrong, you have for free public services, some social security, if you go to jail everything is solved for you, place to stay, meals, even health related problems (ironic). So yes, you are right, your crime was to being born.
So, excuse me but I fail to see that we live in freedom. And it is no bodies business but I have solved my economic situation since a decade ago, I do not have to work for a living, yet I do think that something is not right when half humanity is starving while less than 10% own basically every resource available. Forget about if this is fair or not, simple numbers indicate that the system efficiency is lacking.
Also, it seems to me that the Zeitgeist Movement/Venus Project identifies problems, sometimes miss-identifies problems, that are not really a result of capitalism. It really is akin to saying that the alternator on my VW Beetle isn't working right and so the answer is to scrap it completely. This makes no logical sense as the answer would be to either fix said part or simply create a better one. A redesign of the banking system or a re-approach to Austrian economics I could understand, but scraping it for a system so similar to one that has failed consistently is not my idea of a viable option.
Very good points. Yes, it is unclear how many of our problems are specifically related to money (to put an example) and I believe a lot of study and research should be performed before claiming some things.
There is also the issue of the individual. The individual is in and of themselves a resource. The result of my time, work, life, and those things I create from raw materials are mine. To take those from me, is slavery. To me this is a basic aspect of small "l" libertarianism.
But.... they are NOT yours!!! They have never being yours!! YOU OWE THEM! It is only if you can earn more than what you spend that you can raise a little bit above mere survival. Still, even then, you still owe. You need/want anything you owe it. Money is nothing but debt, even when you have it it has no use unless it is expended, unless you cancel a debt.
Take for instance another service (which IMO should be absolutely free just because you have born). Health care costs. And we all should be aware that this is the biggest problem the US will face. You can forget about the present financial, automotive and housing problems.. the REAL issue will be health care costs in a decade or so. doG help us all.
Now.
No more debt, in this sense, represent a form of FREEDOM that I believe you have not been able to grasp. How can it be accomplished is a good question, but I believe, and I have stated, that we should begin by questioning our current environment, the very foundations of our social and economic system.
If a society can exercise rule over the liberty and property aspects of an individuals life, than what really is to prevent them from exercising control over the life aspect? At what time does that control achieve the level of a person's life being forfeit for the greater good? A bit of hyperbole I know, but it becomes a legitimate concern given the history of similar societies.
Indeed, this is a VERY good point and yes, we should be very aware of this possibility. Now, first of all, and like stockbrokers advice, "past performance is no indicative of future performance". Someday things will change, as they always do. Besides, as I have answered before, I believe there most be ways to get around such possibilities.
First and of capital importance would be to ELIMINATE the state, there will be not a ruler's class. Direct democracy instead of representative democracy (heck Internet is preety useful to achieve it). Every individual (and yes you might feel this is a little bit oppressive, I feel it is not as I would gladly help to keep society as equitative as possible) have the responsibility of being part of the government at some point of their lifes, say from 40 to 43. Natural leaders and followers can find appropriate jobs for that period. Now, of course there would be inherent problems with this approach, but so far is nothing but an idea. We need to work on it to see if it is achievable.
As a side point, I also have to draw your attention to the fact that ANY form of society would exert limitations to personal freedom. Have you think that... maybe... you don't see the ones in play because you are accustomed to being here? An image comes to my mind, a bird living in a cage for all his life. He is so accustomed to live in between the limits of his cage that when you open the door he doesn't see it.
On to the issue of control, well I am not willing to put myself under constant surveillance. If distribution and barter are so much a part of human nature, than doesn't it say something of a society that seeks to curb or prevent this seemingly natural process? Stalinism as a form of communism tried to curb this with the police state and gulag, and this system was birthed out of Leninism, with birthed out of Marxism; which is similar to the Venus Project. Not that anyone on this thread is really wanting to do that, despite previous and stupid statements by myself. Still it would be a concern of a decedent of Volga, but that is neither here nor there.
Well, OF COURSE such a thing should be avoided. I feel offended that you actually believed that I was planning to become an absolute leader of any sort. I tried to explain it to you but somehow we lost communication.
Anyway, what I have in mind here to solve the need for surveillance is a system of countless of completely independent systems, nobody has control over them. Such systems are permanently surveilling every street and public buildings, but not houses, bathrooms and etc. Now, a VERY important point is that everyone of us have access to the surveillance system, so social responsibility is matter of every individual and not a separate force. Crime could be greately reduced, and maybe courts (based more on subjective appearances and rethorics than evidence in some cases) could be avoided to. A self evident society for every member, not any particular "superior" class. Again, this is just an idea that surely needs a lot of work.
What I am getting at, and this is what the Ayn Rand quote is about. The system for all its flaws gives me the ability to make my own destiny, and have an upward mobility. I can be a graphic designer and I am able to do so because I can sell my art to someone for money that can pay for my living expenses and then be used to allow me to do more.
Does it? How many designers end working as waiters, or doing McJobs? How many designers can get the big accounts without personally knowing the CEO or being in sight? How many have to submit their talent to a buffet just to have something to eat each day and maybe an old car? How many crappy designers enjoy the goods of life because they belong to certain community, and not because their talent?
So my question is (promising I will be on my best behavior) how would the Zeitgeist Movement/Venus Project deal with these realistic issues?
Well, I hope some of my answers invite you to argue more, instead of triggering emotions.
Oh BTW, I'm curious myself about what the ZM/VP would answer to you, as I have exposed my own views here.
