• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

"Being black means never having to apologize" ??

You are entitled to your opinion. But just because you think your opinion is the right interpretation doesn't mean you are right.

A better way to look at it would be this. What if Michael Vick was white. Do ya think Whoopi would have said that? Cause I sure don't.

But you certainly are entitled to your opinion.
 
What if Michael Vick weren't famous? Would she have said it then?

The real question is, if Michael Vick were white, would anyone have asked Whoopi about it?
 
You are entitled to your opinion. But just because you think your opinion is the right interpretation doesn't mean you are right.

A better way to look at it would be this. What if Michael Vick was white. Do ya think Whoopi would have said that? Cause I sure don't.

But you certainly are entitled to your opinion.

I don't know--I think maybe Whoopi would have said the same thing if he was white. I agree that I'm not right simply because I believe I'm right. But I didn't make a claim, Big Red and others did. Usually most people on this forum agree that claims don't mean much without evidence. Big Red said this was a very common attitude, so why is it hard to come up with specific examples that illustrate his point?

I'm not claiming to be right--I'm asking for evidence to back up a claim.
 
What stakes are high?

To claim that there has never been a reaction as powerful as the one during and after Katrina.

I don't need to prove to you what I and other people who agree with me have observed.

If you are making such a bold claim, then you need to prove your argument to those you are making the assertion to, otherwise you cannot expect to be taken seriously by any rational person. Can you give any examples, any sources of what it was you observed? If it was frequent and widespread, it shouldn't be hard to find.

Your little bubble of denial?

Acting childishly does not advance you argument.
 
Last edited:
Fair enough. You may be right. I have to believe, though, that it has to take something else to drive someone to suicide.

And then your response is Jonestown, or Heaven's Gate.

And then my response is, again, fair enough; you may be right.
Historically, there is no greater impetus for mass suicide or murder-suicide than religion. Islam in particular has a very long tradition of organized murder-suicide committed by fanatics, dating back at least as far as the Nizari Ishma'ilis prior to and during the Crusades.
 
I have not posted so far in this thread because I don't watch television, don't see the news, and therefore can only wait for quoted evidence in order to see this trend.
 
To claim that there has never been a reaction as powerful as the one during and after Katrina.



If you are making such a bold claim, then you need to prove your argument to those you are making the assertion to, otherwise you cannot expect to be taken seriously by any rational person. Can you give any examples, any sources of what it was you observed? If it was frequent and widespread, it shouldn't be hard to find.



Acting childishly does not advance you argument.


I did not say what you wrote (bolded). So I'm not continuing the conversation with you since you are just twisting words.


Btw I did google some footage and I definitely found professional people who stated they too had never seen anything like it. So I'm not even wasting my time here. All you are going to do is split hairs and argue why. And the more I discuss it with you the more I'm going to leave myself open to be accused of racism.

This is why no one discusses it. Its not worth trying to prove to someone the reality they don't want to admit.

Right now you are acting like someone who is arguing what the definition of being is, or asking me to prove that there is no God.

That's not scientific. Refusing to acknowledge what is obvious is denial. When someone lives in denial then there's no point in having the conversation.

So that's that.
 
Last edited:
Right now you are acting like someone who is arguing what the definition of being is, or asking me to prove that there is no God.

No, it's nothing like that. I'm not asking anyone to prove a negative, and I'm not asking a big philosophical or existential question. A factual claim was made, and I'm simply asking to see examples.

Refusing to acknowledge what is obvious is denial.
What is the obvious thing that I or others refuse to acknowledge?
 
Notices how he only picks out what he wants to read. Classic case of denial. :whistling
 
Notices how he only picks out what he wants to read. Classic case of denial. :whistling

He likely read all of it, but he only quoted the needed parts. You reading too much into it in is a classic case of ass-hatery.
 
Nope, its just the same sort of silly "Still waiting for proof that God doesn't exist." I'm the only one replying really. That's going to stop of course. How lame is this pushy "I'm right because no one wants to talk to me" LMAO.
 
No, it is the exact opposite of, "Still waiting for proof that God doesn't exist." A claim of the positive has been made, one that should have observable evidence, yet none has been forthcoming.

You aren't replying with evidence. That is what we ask for. We really don't care about your confirmation bias. Your, "I'm right because I'm right," is what is lame. The lazy, "I'm not going to waste my time," argument is just another way of saying it.
 
Nope, its just the same sort of silly "Still waiting for proof that God doesn't exist." I'm the only one replying really. That's going to stop of course. How lame is this pushy "I'm right because no one wants to talk to me" LMAO.

As I said before, I'm not claiming to be right, and I'm not asking anyone to prove a negative. I'm asking for evidence to back up a claim Big Red made. I don't know why it would be hard to provide examples of something that is supposedly common in the media. I'm assuming the reason that examples aren't forthcoming is because the claim is a straw man. But I'll gladly look at evidence.

Lmao indeed.
 
Ah but I've never said I was right. I said it was my interpretation of the evidence that everyone has seen. This is what you are ignoring. Everyone has seen the evidence. You know exactly what I am talking about and have a different opinion. However I saw what I saw. And several other people have confirmed to me that they had the same opinion. You two obviously do not. And as I have said, you are entitled to your opinion. But you are no more right or wrong than I am. Its an opinion.

So the idea that unless we convince YOU that WE are right, then we are wrong, is childish and just silly.

Since this is how you are presenting your argument, this is why no one is speaking to you about it.

Anyways off I go.
 
Off you go, again you mean.

Notice that I haven't said you were wrong, but asked for evidence that you based this opinion on.

Now, I'm not going to claim that there are not black people who do behave in this way, and I'm not going to claim that there are not white people who agree. What I will say is that resorting to calling people who disagree with your opinion in denial, childish, silly, etc, is just further showing bad argument base.

You keep 'threatening' to stop talking to us all, and to 'leave', and how 'no one is speaking to you,' yet you're still here? How very odd.
 
I have to say I'm definitely not a fan of this whole "to explain is to defend" or "to understand is to sympathize" line of reasoning. It reminds me of after 9/11, if you said that al Qaeda knocked down the towers because they were upset about US troops being stationed in Saudi Arabia, and they opposed the pro-Western regime in Saudi Arabia and the secularist regime in Iraq, then you were somehow defending the terrorists. Instead, you have to say they did it because "they hate our freedom." It's enforced ignorance.

If I say that a bank robber or drug dealer or Enron executive committed his crime because he wanted to have more money, there's nothing offensive about that (other than the perhaps offensive obviousness of it). But if I say that al Qaeda committed its crimes in response to US policy in the Middle East, or that Vick committed his crimes in part because he grew up around people who thought dogfighting was cool, then somehow I'm defending al Qaeda or Michael Vick? It doesn't make sense.

Well, that depends. There is a difference between explaining and justifying. To say that Al Qaeda was upset due to (amongst other things) US troops being stationed in Saudi Arabia is probably not something many people would disagree with. Saying that this in any way justified killing 3000+ civilians is very different. Part of the disdain displayed towards some people looking for "root causes" was their attempt to use those root causes as justification. There is a difference between "what would make these people do such a heinous act, and why" and "what did we do to make them do this". A significant number of people have made arguments that essentially deny the terrorists any agency and assume we are ultimately responsible for everything that has happened.

I did not say that believing al Qaeda hates our freedom is ignorance. I said (or if I didn't say, I meant to say) that it was ignorance to believe that 19 members of al Qaeda murdered 3000-odd Americans in suicide attacks solely because they hate our freedom.

I'm sure you're right. But there is a big difference between hating freedom and committing suicide in order to murder several thousand people who enjoy the freedom you hate. The former I take for granted. The latter, to me, doesn't even pass the laugh test.

Years ago, I read a very thought provoking article that made me think about human nature, why we believe what we believe, and made me rethink all people who are "activists". For the first time, I considered how people's self identity can play such a strong role in what we believe and what we do. It was an article from Policy Review titled Fantasy Ideology.

www *dot* hoover *dot* org/publications/policyreview/3459646.html

For Stockhausen did grasp one big truth: 9-11 was the enactment of a fantasy — not an artistic fantasy, to be sure, but a fantasy nonetheless.

My first encounter with this particular kind of fantasy occurred when I was in college in the late sixties. A friend of mine and I got into a heated argument. Although we were both opposed to the Vietnam War, we discovered that we differed considerably on what counted as permissible forms of anti-war protest. To me the point of such protest was simple — to turn people against the war. Hence anything that was counterproductive to this purpose was politically irresponsible and should be severely censured. My friend thought otherwise; in fact, he was planning to join what by all accounts was to be a massively disruptive demonstration in Washington, and which in fact became one.

My friend did not disagree with me as to the likely counterproductive effects of such a demonstration. Instead, he argued that this simply did not matter. His answer was that even if it was counterproductive, even if it turned people against war protesters, indeed even if it made them more likely to support the continuation of the war, he would still participate in the demonstration and he would do so for one simple reason — because it was, in his words, good for his soul.

What I saw as a political act was not, for my friend, any such thing. It was not aimed at altering the minds of other people or persuading them to act differently. Its whole point was what it did for him.

And what it did for him was to provide him with a fantasy — a fantasy, namely, of taking part in the revolutionary struggle of the oppressed against their oppressors. By participating in a violent anti-war demonstration, he was in no sense aiming at coercing conformity with his view — for that would still have been a political objective. Instead, he took his part in order to confirm his ideological fantasy of marching on the right side of history, of feeling himself among the elect few who stood with the angels of historical inevitability. Thus, when he lay down in front of hapless commuters on the bridges over the Potomac, he had no interest in changing the minds of these commuters, no concern over whether they became angry at the protesters or not. They were there merely as props, as so many supernumeraries in his private psychodrama. The protest for him was not politics, but theater; and the significance of his role lay not in the political ends his actions might achieve, but rather in their symbolic value as ritual. In short, he was acting out a fantasy.

...

It is a common human weakness to wish to make more of our contribution to the world than the world is prepared to acknowledge, and it is our fantasy world that allows us to fill this gap. But normally, for most of us at least, this fantasy world stays relatively hidden. Indeed, a common criterion of our mental health is the extent to which we are able to keep our fantasies firmly under our watchful control.

Yet clearly there are individuals for whom this control is, at best, intermittent, resulting in behavior that ranges from the merely obnoxious to the clinically psychotic. The man who insists on being taken more seriously than his advantages warrant falls into the former category; the maniac who murders an utter stranger because God — or his neighbor’s dog — commanded him to do so belongs to the latter.

What is common in such interactions is that the fantasist inevitably treats other people merely as props — there is no interest in, or even awareness of, others as having wills or minds of their own.

...


The terror attack of 9-11 was not designed to make us alter our policy, but was crafted for its effect on the terrorists themselves: It was a spectacular piece of theater. The targets were chosen by al Qaeda not through military calculation — in contrast, for example, to the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor — but entirely because they stood as symbols of American power universally recognized by the Arab street. They were gigantic props in a grandiose spectacle in which the collective fantasy of radical Islam was brought vividly to life: A mere handful of Muslims, men whose will was absolutely pure, as proven by their martyrdom, brought down the haughty towers erected by the Great Satan. What better proof could there possibly be that God was on the side of radical Islam and that the end of the reign of the Great Satan was at hand?

As the purpose of the Italian invasion of Ethiopia was to prove to the Italians themselves that they were conquerors, so the purpose of 9-11 was not to create terror in the minds of the American people but to prove to the Arabs that Islamic purity, as interpreted by radical Islam, could triumph. The terror, which to us seems the central fact, is in the eyes of al Qaeda a by-product. Likewise, what al Qaeda and its followers see as central to the holy pageant of 9-11 — namely, the heroic martyrdom of the 19 hijackers — is interpreted by us quite differently. For us the hijackings, like the Palestinian “suicide” bombings, are viewed merely as a modus operandi, a technique that is incidental to a larger strategic purpose, a makeshift device, a low-tech stopgap. In short, Clausewitzian war carried out by other means — in this case by suicide.

But in the fantasy ideology of radical Islam, suicide is not a means to an end but an end in itself. Seen through the distorting prism of radical Islam, the act of suicide is transformed into that of martyrdom — martyrdom in all its transcendent glory and accompanied by the panoply of magical powers that religious tradition has always assigned to martyrdom.

It is a very long article, and I've tried to only include the most relevant parts for this context yet include enough to convey the reasoning. I would strongly recommend reading the whole thing.

I would not, personally, assume rationality behind a decision to commit a murder/suicide involving thousands of strangers.
 
Wow I didn't want to post here again but Mike that is a freaking awesome article.
 
I was using hip-hop as a different more visible example. I am not sure that the definition of maleness and how men act is limited to that section.

And sales of hip hop albums mean little to how communities view of masculinity.

As for if white people think something, you can talk about subsections in that way. On many issues and in many ways the black community seems to be more homogeneous than the white community.

So do you think that talking about the black community and its role in the passing of proposition 8 in California is wrong, and doesn't say meaningful things about the black community?
I am a black person. I would prefer to be judged as an INDIVIDUAL PERSON and not as a skin color or dragged in with other black people because they do or say some certain thing you don't like.

If you were a white person, and I posted a video of George W. Bush saying something foolish then commented "look at how white people speak," do you see how that would be dragging you in and attacking you for sharing a skin color with someone else who may have said something foolish? That's what you do when you make blanket statements about "the black community."

I don't know how to make this any more clear.
 

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom