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Now, let's talk evidence for God.

I could easily use your list to support the existance of Satan or Zoobob the Celestial Troll and it would be as weak.

If theist have a personal belief, that's fine. But when you claim that there is evidence, I expect theist to support their claims with something a little less...well let's just leave it at that.


The question was "what evidence exist for God?" wasn't it? So I just drew up a list of the evidence that theistic apologetics I have seen seem to draw upon. I'll cheerfully discuss them if you like, but that was not in the original remit. :) (nor do I find several of them remotely convincing...)

cj x
 
The question was "what evidence exist for God?" wasn't it? So I just drew up a list of the evidence that theistic apologetics I have seen seem to draw upon. I'll cheerfully discuss them if you like, but that was not in the original remit. :) (nor do I find several of them remotely convincing...)

cj x
No prob. I find listdumps a rather dishonest debating tactic but I know well enough that was not your intention.

So, let's play.

Want to give your best evidence for the existance of God?
PS: Please define god before we start. Is it that list of features that you presented?
 
THIS is where you were either being dishonest or lazy. This is kicking a rock and trying to refute an idealist. I had a friend, many years ago, who started hallucinating things. Scared the hell out of him. You're claiming the fact that he SAW the hallucinations is what? Evidence that they were real? Doesn't work that way.
Strawful, and not what any of us are saying.

A red herring. And pointless.
When you "see" a person, there are infinite models of reality that are consistent with what your eyes tell you: the person may be real; they may be a bit of software code; an experience fed to your mind; a part of a very vivid dream, etc. The fact that you are getting visual sense-data is not evidence for ANY of these possibilities, because the sense-data fits consistently with ALL possibilities, and you either knew this, or should have known this.
You must have a different defintion of infinite than I do.

And you missed the boat, as usual, and argue on the straw shore of your straw island.

If we are brains in vats, butterfly dreams, god thoughts or quanta doesn't matter. Ontology is a useless dead end.

I resent your foolish solipsism, a co-worker of mine died in a car accident two block from school, you philosophy is empty and selfish masturbation.

There is no meaning in your empty drivel, your supposition makes not a whit of difference.

You can not change the force we label as gravity, nor can you provide food and shelter with your foolish, infantile nonsense.

Please do not step in front of a car that is moving at a high rate of speed.
You also missed the obvious theist objection that God may not be the sort of thing one experiences with their senses anyway, so lack of "Godly" sense-data would not be a detriment to theism on that argument alone.
Uh huh, some thing that can't be seen, can't be felt or experienced has what relevance to anything?
Those atheists are wrong. Reality is either theistic (God or Gods) or atheistic.
Absolutes are so backwards, reality occurs along a continuum, a spectrum.

here is the deal, your words are empty bags, and they only work when used to carry idiomatic meaning.

You absolutism is foolish.
Atheists can't disprove God and theistic evidence is far from compelling (mostly personal stuff I talked about before, though I still like the fine-tuning argument). In the absence of any evidence for or against, a proposition must be given an agnostic value (.5). That is hardly a "minute probability" for theism.
Yeah that is right and little spirits cause infection, your alternate theory has no meaning, it has no relevance.

Your argument says that treating infection with holy water is as useful a treating it with cauterization.

Your patient dies, how wonderful.
Now, the same thing could be said about the existence of unicorns (or anything that's not a logical contradiction). Either they exist or they don't.
Keep playing the fool, strawman.

Science says perceptions are real, the perception of a unicorn is real. the question is what predictive validity does it have in interacting with the 'observed' universe.

get your straw out of my peanut butter!
We have no evidence for or against, so again an agnostic position should be taken. I think what you were trying to say is that the question of the existence of God is as trivial as the existence of unicorns or teacups orbitting the moon.
trivial is right, you have your theory to explain the data available, you have the burden to demonstrate the theory that a unicorn exists has predictive validity. I have the burden to over confounding explanation.
The burden is then on you to over the possible removal of that confounding factor.

the main point is your are full of straw.

Science is about approximate models, how does you approximate model for the actual existence of god, as opposed to the observed existence of organic beings (ontology aside because it doesn't matter) who have perceptions MAKE any predictions?

yes god could exist in a locked box that we can never open, so what?

Will it feed the hungry, comfort a child, grow a garden?

Nope.

What prediction does your theory make?

That is the point that you always avoid Malerin?

What point does your theory make that has any impact, meaning or ability to make predictions?

What difference does your approximate model make about anything?
I don't think that's true. For thousands of years, people have not been talking about, and killing each other over, and devoting their lives to the study of whether unicorns or orbitting tea cups exist and what their properties are. People have a fascination with God, and the technical definition of atheism itself proves it is a non-trivial discussion. Atheism is defined as a disbelief in God(s) (though some atheist circles have a more robust definition of the term). Not teacups or fairies or unicorns. Atheism and theism are flip-sides of the same coin.


This is just amazing Malerin, how many straw arguments can you fit into one post?

Not collecting stamps is a hobby, just like collecting stamps!

You have only gotten through the first part of the thought and gotten stuck there, think it through Malerin, why would ontology matter?

Can you repeal the force we label as gravity. No you can not, ontology is worthless babbling.


Be sure to tell me why the suffering of people living with schizophrenia is so wonderful, and how you empty philosophy has any meaning in the face of suicide.

Go do something meaningful with your life, hang out with people. Why does your ontology matter.

What difference does it make. The answer is none.

You can't refute that, I don't think you can, what discernable difference does this pointless rambling make?

Care to defend it in another thread?

here is the challenge, and I will spare you the vitriol after this one post here:

"What prediction does your theory make?

That is the point that you always avoid Malerin?

What point does your theory make that has any impact, meaning or ability to make predictions?

What difference does your approximate model make about anything?"

Up for the debate? I will be polite after this one post.
 
No prob. I find listdumps a rather dishonest debating tactic but I know well enough that was not your intention.

So, let's play.

Want to give your best evidence for the existance of God?
PS: Please define god before we start. Is it that list of features that you presented?


I'll give you my best argument, not my best evidence -- is that ok? I don't believe a word of it as it happens, as it was something I wrote one day on Dawkin's forum when asked to defend the existence of God in a post as I recall, and I have posted it here before -- but hey --


OK, I shall argue the existence of God from the World of Warcraft.

1. WoW (or any MMORPG) is a simulated world with it's own programmed physics in which players take part in an immersive mutual reality. If you are not familiar with it the best documentary is South Park's episode Make Love, not Warcraft which is on cable most nights this week I think.

2. My proposal, based on Nick Bostrom's famous paper http://www.simulation-argument.com/simulation.html - the Simulation Hypothesis - is that given predicted exponential growth in computing (assuming we break the supposed Silicon limit) future virtual universes may be indistinguishable from the real thing. See the work of noted theologians Rob Grant & Doug Naylor in their opus Melior Quam Vita, part of their Rutilus Dwarf series of philosophical investigations for an example. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Than_Life

3. Given that our universe is said to appear to be highly "designed", as in the infamous problem of Fine Tuning, and the collapse of our normal understandings at Quantum levels, I suggest that strings may simply be the level of programming code, and that it is extremely likely that we are living in a simulated universe generated by a civilization that has surpassed our own level of advancement. As virtual universes are easier to construct than real universes, we might infer the odds of us existing in a virtual universe are far higher than those of us existing in a real universe.

4. As the response to Fine Tuning usually suggested (including by Professor Dawkins) is multiverse, let us run with this and allow an infinite (or vast as required by Fine Tuning) number of universes. The odds of those universes having produced an advanced civilisation which manufactures virtual universes therefore approaches certainty, and as these numbers increase vastly so does the number of virtual universes increase (probably exponentially) as does the likelihood we live in a virtual universe. This argument was amusingly developed by cosmologist Paul Davies. SO Fine Tuning or NO Fine Tuning, the argument holds.

5. The programmer of such a universe is outside time/space, super-natural, can change physical laws at whim, created and can destroy the simulation, and can of course "incarnate" by entering the simulation. Furthermore they can provide virtual afterlife, or switch players from previous simulations, giving reincarnation type effects. In effect with regard to their creation (including us) they are a God. This idea fits perfectly with the model of reality proposed by certain atheistic forms of early Buddhism, or more recently by William James in Human Immortality. If you must you can mention The Matrix, a film I have never actually seen, because my friends try to lynch me whenever it comes on. :)

6. Therefore the existence of God(s) is at near certainty! If Christianity's claim that we are made in the image of God is to be considered, then these deities might be rather worrying though.

Feel free to critique my logic -- somehow I doubt anyone is going to convert! :naughty: As you may have gathered, I'm not entirely serious, though actually it is rationally coherent and entirely as far as I can work out logical. :tongue: I welcome any serious critique, because though I have not, you can seriously argue this! Is it not a rational proof of the existence of Gods? :)
 
And because paximperium deserves better than my bad sense of humour, from my latest...

Here is my list --

cj.23 said:
Evidence for Existence of God/dess/(es)

i) the existence of something rather than nothing
ii) the existence of our universe
iii) the existence of rational intelligence
iv) the existence of life
v) the fact the universe is rationally comprehensible
vi) the universe and everything in it.
vii) the cosmological constants (see ii, ii, iv and vi.)
viii) the laws of nature (see v).
ix) religious experience & sensus divinitatis (see also xi)
x) mystical experience
xi) the ubiquity of religious thinking across cultures and parallel independent development
xii) the differences in the worlds religions - pluralism
xiii) prayer results/DMILS
xiv) consciousness arising from matter
xv) evidence suggestive of life after death/NDE/reincarnation etc
xvi) the existence of humanity
xvii) the problem of Good (and especially altruism)
xviii) the Fast Food Rockers
xix) various logical arguments - not evidence as such actually, but attempted logical "proofs" - such as Occams Razor, Kalam Cosmological Argument, the classical "four proofs", etc, etc
xx) personal experience
xxi) Special Revelation
xxii) the logical agreements between classic theism and modern sceince
xxiii) the argument from exclusivity - life as rare

I will take each in turn, and relate them to the proposed "evidences".

A. Self sufficient

This is a venerable argument for God, dating back almost two millenia, maybe more. God is defined as a "necessary" entity - one that has to exist, buts stands independent of any cause or creation. So God is the First Cause.

So, by observation of reality we note that a) something exists (see i) and b) that causality appears to prevail A---->B---> C---->D and do forth. So we have to postulate a "first cause", the unmoved mover, which starts the whole caboodle off, or accept infinite regress. Historically scepticism and atheism have strongly been identified with the notion of infinite regress - the universe is infinite, stretching back eternally. We now know our space/time actually had, as Western theists have long asserted, a "start" - the Big Bang (xxii).

Clearly we have to have a universe (ii, vi) - so the classic argument was the universe was its own cause, the only necessary entity. The problem is the universe appears to be contingent -- it could be imagined to exist in other ways. We may yet find out it is not -- that it is the creation of iron laws of determinism - but the universe as first cause has failed. We now invoke quantum vacuum fluctuations, based on mathematical laws from which the universe arose.

The problem is that we have to create a whole set of necessary probabilistic and mathematical principles which the quantum vacuum fluctuation "runs by" - sure it seems to work in our universe, where the laws of nature and maths apply - but are they derived principles of the universe? If they are, then the argument fails. If we assume that the maths exists outside the universe, it takes on a platonic metaphysical reality - we have created a supernatural entity anyway. This is why most of the really interesting questions facing us to our mind are in the philosophy of mathematics, rather than religion, but hey... (v) and (viii) can be invoked here as well.

We can argue strongly for a necessary entity - the sleight of hand one sometimes sees is the suggestion that that entity is somehow equivalent to (our personal conception of, generally) God. The argument does not bear that to my mind.

Generally considered the strongest form of this cosmological argument (xix) the Kalam Cosmological Argument can be reviewed here --

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalam_cosmological_argument

NOTE: I think I'll cut and paste this bit as pretty much finished, and post some more later. Hope it's a reasonable start. :) (taken from the thread at RD.net)

cj x
 
It is a relief to have someone actually argue a tangible reason for believing in a God, yet I can't help but feel this simply falls into the same old trap of 'deism to theism'. Simply because you find the universe designed by a creator, it is some extraordinary piece of logic to assume this God is not only your God, but has a son who came back to Earth and was murdered on a cross, who turned water into wine, who came back from the dead, an who has a funky beard.

3. Given that our universe is said to appear to be highly "designed", as in the infamous problem of Fine Tuning, and the collapse of our normal understandings at Quantum levels, I suggest that strings may simply be the level of programming code, and that it is extremely likely that we are living in a simulated universe generated by a civilization that has surpassed our own level of advancement. As virtual universes are easier to construct than real universes, we might infer the odds of us existing in a virtual universe are far higher than those of us existing in a real universe.

Who says it is designed?

A universe that is predicted to have all the stars fizz out, forcing humanity to retreat to one of the last remaining dwarf suns, suggests a poor designer. A universe that has 1060 years in which only black holes dominate the universe, sucking up the last remaining photons, suggests a poor designer. Why do we orbit such a humdrum sun, in the corner of an ordinary galaxy? Why not a K or M-class star, that burns for trillions of years? Why has 99% of all species that have ever existed died out? Listen man, you think this baby is God's work?

Dark Era

After all the black holes have evaporated (and after all the ordinary matter made of protons has disintegrated, if protons are unstable), the universe will be nearly empty. Photons, neutrinos, electrons and positrons will fly from place to place, hardly ever encountering each other.

By this era, with only very diffuse matter remaining, activity in the universe will have tailed off dramatically, with very low energy levels and very large time scales. Electrons and positrons drifting through space will encounter one another and occasionally form positronium atoms. These structures are unstable, however, and their constituent particles must eventually annihilate. Other low-level annihilation events will also take place, albeit very slowly.

The universe now reaches an extremely low-energy state. What happens after this is speculative. It's possible that a Big Rip event may occur far off into the future. Also, the universe may enter a second inflationary epoch, or, assuming that the current vacuum state is a false vacuum, the vacuum may decay into a lower-energy state. Finally, the universe may settle into this state forever, achieving true heat death.

That goes on for the longest period in the history of the universe. It is possible some light forms may exist in this strange and scary future. They may praise the vast expanse of space, and consider how terrible it would be if it was occupied by stars and planets, the kind of thing that would get in the way of their long, enduring sail across the cosmos. They consider a God to be at work. Would you join them?

It should be so clear that it is natural that we project ourselves into the heavens, as we are proven to do with clouds, the moon, and the milkyway ('The backbone of night'). If evolution started all over again, it is a certainty we would not exist as we are today. We are not that special. We are lost in the great cosmos and we are lonely.

5. The programmer of such a universe is outside time/space, super-natural, can change physical laws at whim, created and can destroy the simulation, and can of course "incarnate" by entering the simulation. Furthermore they can provide virtual afterlife, or switch players from previous simulations, giving reincarnation type effects. In effect with regard to their creation (including us) they are a God. This idea fits perfectly with the model of reality proposed by certain atheistic forms of early Buddhism, or more recently by William James in Human Immortality. If you must you can mention The Matrix, a film I have never actually seen, because my friends try to lynch me whenever it comes on. :)

But this could be anything. It could be the God of the Martians or the Aliens of Signor-7. You seem to make an incredible stretch to go from some sort of designer to the kind who worries about who you fool around with in bed.
 
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This is a venerable argument for God, dating back almost two millenia, maybe more. God is defined as a "necessary" entity - one that has to exist, buts stands independent of any cause or creation. So God is the First Cause.

So, by observation of reality we note that a) something exists (see i) and b) that causality appears to prevail A---->B---> C---->D and do forth. So we have to postulate a "first cause", the unmoved mover, which starts the whole caboodle off, or accept infinite regress. Historically scepticism and atheism have strongly been identified with the notion of infinite regress - the universe is infinite, stretching back eternally. We now know our space/time actually had, as Western theists have long asserted, a "start" - the Big Bang (xxii).

Yet we must ask the next question, where did God come from? If we postulate that God always existed, why not save a step, and proclaim that the universe always existed? If the existence of God is an unanswerable question, why not save a step, and proclaim that the universe is an unanswerable question? There is no need for a creator, there never was.

/Carl.
 
Yet we must ask the next question, where did God come from? If we postulate that God always existed, why not save a step, and proclaim that the universe always existed? If the existence of God is an unanswerable question, why not save a step, and proclaim that the universe is an unanswerable question? There is no need for a creator, there never was.

/Carl.

That is completely so: nothing in this argument i made to my mind compels us to believe in an intelligent creator -- but the Hartle-Hawking hypothesis aside, we are required to believe in a first cause as I understand it. If we include the quantum vacuum fluctuation that the big Bang arises from - hang on how can something arise from osmething outside space/time? - anyway, if we include that in the universe, the universe can be eternal I guess. It is not however necessary I think. Dunno!

cj x
 
Their biological parents one assumes?

cj x
Weird answer. So, the best argument of a plausible god is that of a programmer god that formed via completely natural processes?

Okay...plausible sure. No evidence but plausible.

How does that lead to YHWH? (Unless you're claiming that YHWH is a pimply faced programmer/hacker...knowing how petulent and violent YHWH has been, I guess it is entirely plausible that YHWH is a teenage nerd.)
 
Yet we must ask the next question, where did God come from? If we postulate that God always existed, why not save a step, and proclaim that the universe always existed? If the existence of God is an unanswerable question, why not save a step, and proclaim that the universe is an unanswerable question? There is no need for a creator, there never was.

/Carl.

If philosophy was taught in early schools years, atheists wouldn't have to have conversations like this with theists. Or perhaps they would.
 
Weird answer. So, the best argument of a plausible god is that of a programmer god that formed via completely natural processes?

Okay...plausible sure. No evidence but plausible.

How does that lead to YHWH? (Unless you're claiming that YHWH is a pimply faced programmer/hacker...knowing how petulent and violent YHWH has been, I guess it is entirely plausible that YHWH is a teenage nerd.)

I don't. I never said this was an argument for Judeo-Christianity, or that I actually believed it. In fact I think I said I didn't? It is however a fairly rational argument i think you will agree - but the rationality of an argument in no way makes it correct. One can rationally argue an atheist or a theist position - but they are completely contradictory...


Here is how I envisage the programmer god --
familyGuy2006_Chris_f_1178542383.jpg


"I don't want to start any blasphemous rumours..." but I think it might explain a lot. :D

cj x
 
If philosophy was taught in early schools years, atheists wouldn't have to have conversations like this with theists. Or perhaps they would.

I was taught a little philosophy weekly at the age of 11 to 12 as part of my schools special education programme; 1981-82. I am unique as far as i know in this respect. I must say I don't think I got, far, but the answer is "they would..."

cj x
 
Well, you can be logically consistent based on a false premise.

Your programmer god argument is logically consistent based on an un-evidenced premise.
 
Well, you can be logically consistent based on a false premise.

Your programmer god argument is logically consistent based on an un-evidenced premise.

Precisely. Well not entirely unevidenced - I'm arguing from facts we know about cosmology, mathematics, etc, and logic. What I would say is the argument lacks compelling or even strong evidential weight...

I'd best shut up and let malerin and yrreg get back to work. As you may have gathered i am rather playful. :)
cj x
 
As to the issue of proving the existence of the material world or the existence of other people, those issues are not in the same category as the existence of God; so, at best, you are being highly misleading by putting them in the same category. When it comes to the the external world and other people we have plenty of evidence that they exist whenever we open our eyes. We simply do not have the sort of logical proof that demonstrates absolutely that they exist in the same way that thought exists. When it comes to God, we don't even have that sort of evidence; and for many kinds of gods we have evidence that they either do not exist or very likely do not exist. The same cannot be said of other people or the "material" world.


That is a blatant appeal to sense-data as evidence for the existence of external things and people. You want to back-track with some loopy definition that reality is "stuff that follows rules", that's your lookout.

I liked this version of you better. The argument was no good, but at least you weren't equivocating all over the place.
 
That is a blatant appeal to sense-data as evidence for the existence of external things and people. You want to back-track with some loopy definition that reality is "stuff that follows rules", that's your lookout.

I liked this version of you better. The argument was no good, but at least you weren't equivocating all over the place.

So is your argument that sense-data is no evidence for the existence of external things?
 
That is a blatant appeal to sense-data as evidence for the existence of external things and people.

That's because sense-data is evidence for the existence of external things and people, I'm afraid.

It's merely not conclusive evidence. Fingerprints on the murder weapon don't prove that I committed the murder, but they sure as hell don't help to acquit me.

In particular; if there are external things and people, then the existence of sense-data follows as an immediate consequence.

If there weren't external things and people, however, then the existence of sense-data is not a necessary consequence; some versions of a universe without things would also not have sense data, some would.

Hence simple algebra and Bayes theorem demonstrate conclusively that sense-data is evidence for the existence of external things and people.
 
So is your argument that sense-data is no evidence for the existence of external things?

I think that Malerin is unable or unwilling to distinguish the likely from the possible. Finding hoofprints in my yard, for example, is evidence for deer. The possibility that some nutcase might have attached tiny little hooves to squirrels and let them run all over my yard does not change that.
 

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