Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

[DOC]

Well, Darat asked me a few days ago what is the least amount of evidence that would make me believe Jesus did not rise from the dead?

Well in order to properly answer that question I had to ask myself why I believe in Christianity and its claim that Christ rose from the dead. Here are some of the reasons I thought of:

1) the amazing and original words of Christ himself -- words that motivated T. Jefferson (a prolific reader in multiple languages) to cut those words out of the bible and make a book with them.

2) the life changing power of the Gospel that gets people off drugs, turns peoples marriages around, and gives many people a reason to live and hope. I've seen countless testimonies on TV about this "real" life changing power.

3) the absurdity of the current unproven life from non-life scientific theory.

4) the absurdity of the current mainline scientific theory that all the 100 billion galaxies in the known universe (including all of its matter and space) came from something smaller than an atom and this happened by unintelligent random forces.

5) the fact that the cowardly apostles who wouldn't even attend Christ's crucifixion, or stay awake with him for one hour when he needed them, or who (like Peter) did things like denying Christ to a lone woman 3 times, suddenly became bold evangelists willing to lay down their lives (11 or 12 actually did) and travel all over the known world with great hardships to themself for their belief.

6)the unexplained empty tomb

7) the numerous fulfilled prophesies of the Old Testament.

8) the unparalleled growth by peaceful means in the brutal Roman empire with no modern transportation or communications.

9)my own personal peace, joy, and hope, obtained from Christianity.

So in answer to the question you would have to make Christ's words mundane with no life changing power, then you would have to take away Christianity's peaceful growth (with no modern transportation or communications) during the brutal Roman empire regime and its replacing the entrenched Roman and Greek gods. Then you would have to have no more than two of the apostles being martyred instead of 11. Then you would have to give a very good explanation for the empty tomb with evidence to support it. That would probably be the least evidence I would need not to believe Christ rose from the dead.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

1) the amazing and original words of Christ himself -- words that motivated T. Jefferson (a prolific reader in multiple languages) to cut those words out of the bible and make a book with them.

2) the life changing power of the Gospel that gets people off drugs, turns peoples marriages around, and gives many people a reason to live and hope. I've seen countless testimonies on TV about this "real" life changing power.

So the claims of Buddhism are true, then.

3+4) the fact that no matter how hard you try, I'm never, ever going to look at scientific evidence with open eyes.

Clutching at straws, are we?

5) the fact that the cowardly apostles who wouldn't even attend Christ's crucifixion, or stay awake with him for one hour when he needed them, or who (like Peter) did things like denying Christ to a lone woman 3 times, suddenly became bold evangelists willing to lay down their lives (11 or 12 actually did) and travel all over the known world with great hardships to themself for their belief.

Therefore he didn't rise from the dead?! So if a loved one of me dies and I go out in the world and preach his or her political and religious views, she'll come back to life?

Oh my god! I just decided to go out and do well in the name of this friend of mine who recently died of leukemia, and lo and behold, he is here with me now!

DOC, you hold the power to raise the dead! Why haven't you told me this before?!

6)the unexplained empty tomb

Show me archeological evidence that this tomb existed.

7) the numerous fulfilled prophesies of the Old Testament.

What are these fulfilled prophecies, and how come they make up for all the ones that did not come true?

8) the unparalleled growth by peaceful means in the brutal Roman empire with no modern transportation or communications.

You really are clutching at straws here. Saying that the Roman Empire was Christian and Christianity was thus responsible for its wealth (which it wasn't, it was more responsible for its downfall) is like saying that since the Roman Empire was ruled by whites, then it's the fact that white people ruled the Roman empire that ensured its growth.

 

[DOC]

Clutching at straws, are we?

Please don't change my quote about science as you did above. I'll try to get to the rest as time permits.

 

[zooterkin]

Could we have a new barrel? The fish in this one are full of holes...

 

[paximperium]

I find it very amusing how DOC attempts to ignore his multiple failed posts that are completely gutted by attempting a reset, AGAIN.

He attempts this by bringing up completely irrelevant points and even more amusingly, he brings up the same bullcrap points that was completely torn to shread a few pages back. His dishonesty continues to be a great example of those sad Christians who enjoy "Lying for Christ".

 

[Ichneumonwasp]

So in answer to the question you would have to make Christ's words mundane with no life changing power

To which words, in particular, do you refer?

then you would have to take away Christianity's peaceful growth (with no modern transportation or communications) during the brutal Roman empire regime and its replacing the entrenched Roman and Greek gods

1. The growth was not that spectacular. It appears to be similar to the current growth of the Mormon church. Are the Mormons correct?
2. In what way were the Romans any more brutal than anyone else? Is this the myth of overwhelming Christian persecution again, a myth that has been debunked a thousand times over?
3. It replaced polytheism because it was exclusivistic. The Roman and Greek religions admitted new gods all the time, so when new religions sprang up, none of them replaced the old religions -- they simply added to it. Judaism and Christianity, on the other hand, are exclusivistic religions, so they naturally must replace whatever religion pre-dated them if they were to survive. And it did not even garner more than a 10% or 12% share of the Empire until Constantine converted and made it advantageous to become a Christian. Do you really want to argue that Christianity is correct because of historical contingency?

Then you would have to have no more than two of the apostles being martyred instead of 11.

What evidence do you have, aside from legendary accounts, that any of them were martyred? And how, exactly, even assuming they were martyred, is this proof of anything but that they believed that Jesus had been raised from the dead? It doesn't follow that legends should shore up any belief in an actual reality.

Then you would have to give a very good explanation for the empty tomb with evidence to support it.

This would be the empty tomb that likely never existed and was a story convention to "prove" that Jesus was not eaten by wild animals when his body was thrown into the city trash pit? You are assuming that this far-fetched story is correct? Why make that assumption? There is a sort of internal critique of this story which seemed to have changed over time in the fact that different people see that the tomb is empty and the tomb scene is described very differently in different gospels -- to the point that when we get to John's gospel it is stocked with a king's ransom in ointments and perfumes.

 

[Elizabeth I]

I am going to try to say this in words of one syllable and see if they penetrate the solid granite:

You...can...not...use...what...the...Bible...says...to...prove...that...what...the...Bible...says...is...true.

(Okay, sorry, Bible is two syllables, but I hope its familiarity will allow that circumstance not to be too confusing.)

The crucifixion and resurrection are in the Bible. The miracles are in the Bible. The prophecies are in the Bible. You may believe all these things are true - no one is attempting to take that away from you - but you cannot say that because the Bible says these things, it proves that they're true. All you can say is that the Bible says these things.

 

[joobz]

1) the amazing and original words of Christ himself -- words that motivated T. Jefferson (a prolific reader in multiple languages) to cut those words out of the bible and make a book with them.

What were the original words of Christ again? I mean, we know what was written, but do we know they are actually his words?

Besides, we have multiple examples of moving words. These do not make one a diety. Shakespeare, anyone?

2) the life changing power of the Gospel that gets people off drugs, turns peoples marriages around, and gives many people a reason to live and hope. I've seen countless testimonies on TV about this "real" life changing power.

Same thing about scientology, Islam, Bhuddism, ....

3) the absurdity of the current unproven life from non-life scientific theory.

Your faith in christianity is based upon your poor grasp of scientific evidence?

4) the absurdity of the current mainline scientific theory that all the 100 billion galaxies in the known universe (including all of its matter and space) came from something smaller than an atom and this happened by unintelligent random forces.

Your faith in christianity is based upon your unwillingness accept scientific evidence?

5) the fact that the cowardly apostles who wouldn't even attend Christ's crucifixion, or stay awake with him for one hour when he needed them, or who (like Peter) did things like denying Christ to a lone woman 3 times, suddenly became bold evangelists willing to lay down their lives (11 or 12 actually did) and travel all over the known world with great hardships to themself for their belief.

Um. you believe because a story in a book says that other people were convinced?

6)the unexplained empty tomb

You believe because there's a story that claims there was an empty tomb?

7) the numerous fulfilled prophesies of the Old Testament.

You beleive because there's a story that claims there were prophecies and that these prophecies were fullfilled?

8) the unparalleled growth by peaceful means in the brutal Roman empire with no modern transportation or communications.

Seriously? Christianity was spread peacefully? Are you being serious or are you speaking in relative terms?

9)my own personal peace, joy, and hope, obtained from Christianity.

You believe in christianity becuase you believe in christianity. excellent.

So in answer to the question you would have to make Christ's words mundane with no life changing power,

Um, mundane words CAN be life changing. This requirement is silly.

then you would have to take away Christianity's peaceful growth (with no modern transportation or communications) during the brutal Roman empire regime and its replacing the entrenched Roman and Greek gods.

Scientology has been growing peacefully. What make you of it?

Then you would have to have no more than two of the apostles being martyred instead of 11.

How about we add 100,000,000,000,000 apostles to christianity and they are all martyred.
Does this help improve the truth of christianity?

Then you would have to give a very good explanation for the empty tomb with evidence to support it.

how about, there was no empty tomb. It was a story.

Or, how about, the grave was robbed.
Evidence for that?
The Stone was moved from the entrance. That is the only way a mundane human could enter the tomb to steal from it. only a divine act could have left the tomb without breaking it's seal.

That would probably be the least evidence I would need not to believe Christ rose from the dead.

What does spread of christianity have to do with the truth of christ rising from the dead?
THere is absolutely NO relationship between these two points.

 

[boloboffin]

:facepalm:

Thomas Jefferson cut Jesus' words out of the Bible to remove them from the context of rank superstition. This is just sad.

ETA: I mean, seriously. You might as well think Hillel and Shammai were divine on that basis.

 

[joobz]

:facepalm:

Thomas Jefferson cut Jesus' words out of the Bible to remove them from the context of rank superstition. This is just sad.

His post was nothing more than a medley of his logical fallacy greatest hits. I'm actually shocked he didn't include a "athiesm leads to suicide" argument.


The only thing I find sad is how people like Geisler can convince people like DOC that special pleading is an acceptable form of logical argument. No wonder why it took centuries under christianity before we were able to acheive the age of enlightenment. The scary part is that if we are not careful, we can easily return to a time where superstition and magic replace reason.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

The only thing I find sad is how people like Geisler can convince people like DOC that special pleading is an acceptable form of logical argument. No wonder why it took centuries under christianity before we were able to acheive the age of enlightenment. The scary part is that if we are not careful, we can easily return to a time where superstition and magic replace reason.

Why do you talk like that? You sound like a fag!

 

[joobz]

Why do you talk like that? You sound like a fag!

I need a starbucks.

 

[AWPrime]

So DOC your belief is based upon myths and circular reasoning.

 

[paximperium]

:facepalm:

Thomas Jefferson cut Jesus' words out of the Bible to remove them from the context of rank superstition. This is just sad.

ETA: I mean, seriously. You might as well think Hillel and Shammai were divine on that basis.

He used the exact same argument not more than 4 pages ago. His continued use of this similar argument is weird, especially since Thomas Jefferson was a Deist.

So what?

You mean how Mr Jefferson, the Deist disassembled the Bible, removed all the supernatural parts, denied Jesus' divinity and kept some of the underlying philosophy that he agreed with? If you want to call that Christianity, then good for you. You've obviously never read the Jefferson Bible.

That's the most irrelevant non-sequitur and downright desperate argument from authority I've ever read.

Best part of the Jefferson Bible:

62 Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden; and in the garden a new sepulchre, wherein was never man yet laid.
63 There laid they Jesus,
64 And rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed. [SIZE=+1]

[/SIZE]
Nothing more. Jesus died, got buried, end of story.

 

[six7s]

Everyone has the right to an opinion, And a lot of the evidence or reasons or whatever you want to call it that I've presented

It's called circular logic, aka ridiculous nonsense aka a waste of pixels aka woo-enabling-woo

...Geisler has written over 60 books. I think he knows a little about evidence to write and get published 60 books.

If the other 59 are as goofy as the one you have quoted, then so what?

Serious question DOC:
WHY (apart from his woo being in keeping with your beliefs) do you think he knows a little about evidence?

So, you admit I've presented evidence that the people who wrote the New Testament believed they were telling the truth.

Maybe... but that is, as has been pointed out, completely and utterly irrelevant to your claim that your messiah was resurrected

Everyone has the right to an opinion

No. You have the right to an opinion. YOU DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO A FACT OR EVIDENCE.

@DOC: You do have the right to remain silent; any threads not started by you will not be held against you and/or your exceedingly shonky track-record on this, a critical thinking forum

 

[DOC]

DOC quote:

7) the numerous fulfilled prophesies of the Old Testament.

What are these fulfilled prophecies, and how come they make up for all the ones that did not come true?

Well in this article Dr. Hugh Ross says there are about 2500 prophesies in the Bible. He says about 2000 have been fulfilled to the letter and the remainder 500 or so remain to be fulfilled in the future.

http://www.reasons.org/resources/apologetics/prophecy.shtml

 

[Hokulele]

DOC quote:

7) the numerous fulfilled prophesies of the Old Testament.

So, the best evidence that the bible is true is the fact that the bible says its true.


OK.

 

[paximperium]

DOC quote:

7) the numerous fulfilled prophesies of the Old Testament.

Well in this article Dr. Hugh Ross says there are about 2500 prophesies in the Bible. He says about 2000 have been fulfilled to the letter and the remainder 500 or so remain to be fulfilled in the future.

http://www.reasons.org/resources/apologetics/prophecy.shtml

I do enjoy the rather amusing "probabilities" following each prophecy.

Of course it is even more amusing how each prophecy is vague and is proven true by the Bible itself. ie. The Prophecies are true because the Bible said it is true.

Prophecy 1:

(1) Some time before 500 B.C. the prophet Daniel proclaimed that Israel's long-awaited Messiah would begin his public ministry 483 years after the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem (Daniel 9:25-26). He further predicted that the Messiah would be "cut off," killed, and that this event would take place prior to a second destruction of Jerusalem. Abundant documentation shows that these prophecies were perfectly fulfilled in the life (and crucifixion) of Jesus Christ. The decree regarding the restoration of Jerusalem was issued by Persia's King Artaxerxes to the Hebrew priest Ezra in 458 B.C., 483 years later the ministry of Jesus Christ began in Galilee. (Remember that due to calendar changes, the date for the start of Christ's ministry is set by most historians at about 26 A.D. Also note that from 1 B.C. to 1 A.D. is just one year.) Jesus' crucifixion occurred only a few years later, and about four decades later, in 70 A.D. came the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus.

The Jews disagree.

 

[DOC]

So, the best evidence that the bible is true is the fact that the bible says its true.

There is a lot of evidence that the bible is true -- historical, archeological, geographical -- I guess you feel fulfilled bible prophecy is the best.

And haven't you heard that Iran has threatened to wipe Israel off the map. That fact along with other Middle East countries who hate Israel would seem to make Armageddon a real possibility. And don't forget the nuclear weapons Iran will probably have soon.

 

[joobz]

There is a lot of evidence that the bible is true -- historical, archeological, geographical -- I guess you feel fulfilled bible prophecy is the best.

If this is the case, then why have you presented the rather poor arguments and logical fallacies of Geisler instead of this archeological, historical and geographical evidence you claim?
How about some of the evidence needed to support the resurrection?

And haven't you heard that Iran has threatened to wipe Israel off the map. That fact along with other Middle East countries who hate Israel would seem to make Armageddon a real possibility. And don't forget the nuclear weapons Iran will probably have soon.

I just received whiplash from this jump in logic.