Send in the tanks! (Chavez)

[RandFan]

See RandFan, you are misinformed. Chavez did not close RCTV. He did not renew their license for a slot of terrestrial broadcast. They are free to continue broadcasting over satellite. The station was involved with the failed coup and Chavez did say as early as 2002 that he will not renew the license (which ran for six years if i'm not mistaken).

Yeah, just imagine George Bush refusing to renew the license of CBS, NBC or ABC and then asserting, well they can always use the Internet.

Let's be honest here CE, if that happened then Bush would be impeached. Don't excuse the behavior Chavez. Getting rid of opposition voices is what politicians love to do most. It's why America has a first Amendment and why Bush could never refuse to renew a license.

It is class warfare. Earlier you said that you are fine with critizising "mistakes" by US authorities. This is a misconception. We are dealing with conscious hegemonial power politics ranging over most of the 20th century, not with mistakes.

Demonstrate this? And what do you mean by "misconception"? Your rhetoric is sounding like revolutionary propaganda. Please speak directly. If the use of the word "mistake" is wrong then just say so.

Oh, and you didn't quote the whole answer of Chavez to Pilger's question.

Please to quote the part that you think answers the question?

You have to recognize the state of the country when Chavez became president to judge the success of his efforts. Out of this reason it is also unfair to blame him for the criminality in Caracas (which is indeed a huge problem).

So you are saying that the criminality of Caracas is the reason why Chavez has not done better.

And are you mixing up Argentina and Venezuela or am i missing something?

I'm making a point. Politicians, like Peron know how to play populist and give just so much to the poor to keep them popular. Don't confuse a claim of love for the people means that Chavez isn't corrupt or acting like a buffoon and ignoring the advise of people who were loyal to him and turning them against him.

Chavez is making serious mistakes and you are rushing in to defend him. Perhaps it is because he is perceived as the only and best hope. Perhaps he is. If so then I fear for Venezuela.

 

[RandFan]

It corroborates what the documentary is saying, that there was prior knowledge of the planning of the coup and finanical support of the people involved with it. Just in case you think they are making it up.

Where is the corroboration? I don't see it. I'm not saying it isn't there but it's not obvious. It's your claim could you take a moment and help me out?

 

[RandFan]

The Epic Lie.

38:02 Pilger: "To understand such an epic lie..."

I want to be careful of ad hominem here. Pleae note, that Pilger makes such a statement isn't proof that any of his arguments are wrong. However, the statement certainly calls into question his objectivity. I see little of that in this "documentary". There is clearly an agenda and Pilger is propagating his views rather than simply trying to find the truth.

 

[RandFan]

American involvement in Latin America

I can't excuse the crimes and poor decisions committed by America against Latin America. I think they remain our biggest blunders. However I think what is missing in Pilger's documentary is any perspective. Pilger is happy to point out that America was working to protect our interests and this is fair. What is not pointed out however is the legitimate concern America has for revolution. Communism had stripped the freedom and rights of billions and resulted in the deaths of hundreds of millions. Communism, for very good reason, was a legitimate concern. Pilger's thesis is that America was simply against Democracy but that is not true. After WWII America could have installed dictatorships and puppet governments in Japan, Italy, Germany and other nations the way the Soviet Union did. On the contrary, America set up Democracies. That's a fact. Consider that when you want to accuse America of only being hegemonic. It's not true. We made serious mistakes in Latin America. I think we underestimated the people because of bias and bigotry and it's unfortunate. But there is no evidence that America simply wanted to dominate the world. Latin or otherwise.

 

[Childlike Empress]

Yeah, just imagine George Bush refusing to renew the license of CBS, NBC or ABC and then asserting, well they can always use the Internet.

Let's be honest here CE, if that happened then Bush would be impeached. Don't excuse the behavior Chavez. Getting rid of opposition voices is what politicians love to do most. It's why America has a first Amendment and why Bush could never refuse to renew a license.

Yeah, let's be honest. Where would the head of CBS or NBC be today if his station has repeatedly called for violent overthrow of Bush and was seen celebrating with the leaders of a coup d'etat after bush was kidnapped and held prisoner in say Hawaii? In prison perhaps?

Demonstrate this? And what do you mean by "misconception"? Your rhetoric is sounding like revolutionary propaganda. Please speak directly. If the use of the word "mistake" is wrong then just say so.

There are countless books on the issue of american imperialism. I know that you don't like the term, but that's what the facts say. Neo-imperialism. I recommend Noam Chomsky's "Hegemony or Survival" or Michael Parenti's "Against Empire" for further study. Or watch a good documentary on the issue (oops, you already do!).

Please to quote the part that you think answers the question?

So you are saying that the criminality of Caracas is the reason why Chavez has not done better.

I'm saying that Chavez can't work miracles. And by now you should have seen that the process in Venezuela is not depending only on Chavez. It is a grass-roots movement and he has a lot of domestic criticism from the left.

 

[Childlike Empress]

Where is the corroboration? I don't see it. I'm not saying it isn't there but it's not obvious. It's your claim could you take a moment and help me out?

If you think they are making the documents up, you can find them there. They show the documents and the content. If you are interested in the NED documents for example, go to the accordant section of the page.

 

[gtc]

This is interesting. I'm not sure what to think of it till it's fully implemented though.

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSN1935089920070419

From the article:

There has been a strong sense of the state keeping tabs on the opposition in Venezuela since a 2004 recall referendum against Chavez, which the president won easily.

Those who signed a petition seeking the referendum complain their identities were made public, affecting their chances of employment in the state sector.

Venezuela has the world's highest death rate from guns, according to the United Nations, with 34 deaths in every 100,000 caused by firearms. Brazil is second with 22 in every 100,000. Caracas itself has stopped issuing the statistics.

Its incredible that some people can see him as a hero.

 

[RandFan]

Yeah, let's be honest. Where would the head of CBS or NBC be today if his station has repeatedly called for violent overthrow of Bush and was seen celebrating with the leaders of a coup d'etat after bush was kidnapped and held prisoner in say Hawaii? In prison perhaps?

If he [or she] committed a crime he [or she] would be in prison. The station would NOT have been shut down (not had it's licensed renewed).

There are countless books on the issue of american imperialism. I know that you don't like the term, but that's what the facts say. Neo-imperialism. I recommend Noam Chomsky's "Hegemony or Survival" or Michael Parenti's "Against Empire" for further study. Or watch a good documentary on the issue (oops, you already do!).

It's not a very good documentary. There is truth but there are many omissions and lack of important perspective. There's a lack of objectivity and opposing POV. The PBS documentary at least gave considerable time to both sides. Pilger only chooses the worst of any opposing view.

Much of what America did in Latin America was wrong.

Let me repeat that.

Much of what America did in Latin America was wrong.

That fact should not lead you to simply assume only the worst of America or view our involvement only in the worst possible light. And please, ask yourself why America didn't install dictatorships in Europe following WWII? There is a truth there that folks like Pilger doesn't want to acknowledge.

I'm saying that Chavez can't work miracles. And by now you should have seen that the process in Venezuela is not depending only on Chavez. It is a grass-roots movement and he has a lot of domestic criticism from the left.

I don't think anyone expects Chavez to work miracles. However those who were closest to him and who have left him realize that he has made too many mistakes and is failing his people.

 

[Childlike Empress]

38:02 Pilger: "To understand such an epic lie..."

I want to be careful of ad hominem here. Pleae note, that Pilger makes such a statement isn't proof that any of his arguments are wrong. However, the statement certainly calls into question his objectivity. I see little of that in this "documentary". There is clearly an agenda and Pilger is propagating his views rather than simply trying to find the truth.

Epic lie. That's what it is. The american corporate media is involved in constant epical lying to the american people about the role of their country in the world during the last decades. And the whole world knows it. That is a huge problem and the main source of anti-americanism, to use that term, through-out the world.

 

[Childlike Empress]

Much of what America did in Latin America was wrong.

Let me repeat that.

Much of what America did in Latin America was wrong.

That fact should not lead you to simply assume only the worst of America or view our involvement only in the worst possible light. And please, ask yourself why America didn't install dictatorships in Europe following WWII? There is a truth there that folks like Pilger doesn't want to acknowledge.

I know. And Pilger knows too. You don't have to be defensive. See post above. I think the great majority of americans would not go along with these politics if they were presented with the views of the people in the countries that had to suffer from the "mistakes" of the american ruling class.

You aren't the bad guys. But you aren't the good guys either.

 

[RandFan]

If you think they are making the documents up, you can find them there. They show the documents and the content. If you are interested in the NED documents for example, go to the accordant section of the page.

It's your claim? Why can't you just tell me which documents and where they are? I have no idea which documents prove your thesis. I'm not sure why you are being difficult here. Come on. You've been on this forum long enough to know how this works. It's a skeptics forum.

 

[RandFan]

Epic lie. That's what it is. The american corporate media is involved in constant epical lying to the american people about the role of their country in the world during the last decades. And the whole world knows it. That is a huge problem and the main source of anti-americanism, to use that term, through-out the world.

Fallacy. CE, simply asserting something doesn't make it true. Look, I think you can do better than this. It's been awhile since I've seen you in discussion but if my memory serves me well you are not a blind demogogue. If you want to make a claim then give us evidence and make a logical argument. Asserting what the world thinks as true is neither substanted nor would the belief of the world make it true.

At the risk of patronizing, bring your A game. You can do much better.

 

[RandFan]

And Pilger knows too.

It would sure be nice if he could demonstrate some objectivity and not appear to be propagating an evil empire meme. It's really disappointingly short on objectivity. I kept hopping for some perspective but I'm 55:00 minutes in and it seems that there is no will to be so.

I would like to say that I'm ashamed that America was involved with the attrocity.

 

[Childlike Empress]

It's your claim? Why can't you just tell me which documents and where they are? I have no idea which documents prove your thesis. I'm not sure why you are being difficult here. Come on. You've been on this forum long enough to know how this works. It's a skeptics forum.

I'm not being difficult. You said that the claims the documentary makes about the coup don't ring true to you and i showed you where you can find the documents shown in the film. That's all. I only made the claim that these documents really exist and contain what the documentary says they contain.

 

[RandFan]

Were The Crimes Worth It?

1:00:01 Pilger asks a very important question: "Are the crimes worth it?"

Do the ends justify the means? It's a good question. It would seem that the justification of crime depends on one's perspective. Just ask Ché Gueveara about Foquismo. The icon of anti-American imperialism implicitly advocated the kind of violence repudiated by Pilger. I agree with Pilger and not Ché but let's be sure we are consistent.

 

[RandFan]

I'm not being difficult. You said that the claims the documentary makes about the coup don't ring true to you and i showed you where you can find the documents shown in the film. That's all. I only made the claim that these documents really exist and contain what the documentary says they contain.

I don't know what else to say. I don't know where they are or if they do in fact say what you claim. If you don't care enough to support your claim then why should I?

 

[JihadJane]

If he [or she] committed a crime he [or she] would be in prison. The station would NOT have been shut down (not had it's licensed renewed).

.

Do you really believe that no other action would be taken against a US TV station that was instrumental in the violent overthrow of the US government, the kidnapping of the US President and the occupation of the White House?

Nearly all of Venezuela's TV stations pump out anti-Chavez propaganda and are left free to broadcast it. I doubt that this situation would be allowed in the US.

 

[gtc]

38:02 Pilger: "To understand such an epic lie..."

I want to be careful of ad hominem here. Pleae note, that Pilger makes such a statement isn't proof that any of his arguments are wrong. However, the statement certainly calls into question his objectivity. I see little of that in this "documentary". There is clearly an agenda and Pilger is propagating his views rather than simply trying to find the truth.

That is typical of his documentaries and writing.

This article is a case in point:

http://www.greenleft.org.au/2003/525/30922

He is claiming that there is a classified plan for an American group to provoke terrorist attacks in order to justify counter-attacks. Then he says:

This is reminiscent of Operation Northwoods, the plan put to President John Kennedy by his military chiefs for a phoney terrorist campaign — complete with bombings, hijackings, plane crashes and dead Americans — as justification for an invasion of Cuba. Kennedy rejected it. He was assassinated a few months later.

What does the fact that Kennedy was assassinated a few months later have to do with anything? Mentioning it here creates a sense that the events were linked without explicitly indicating that he believes them to be linked.

This article is also very telling.
http://www.johnpilger.com/page.asp?partid=378

He refers to the elected government of Iraq as a 'quisling regime'. He suggests that the 2004 US elections was not 'democracy in action' but 'the contrivance of fewer than 1 per cent of the population, the ultra-rich and powerful'.

He then goes on to detail his view that the events of 9/11 were either ' the most extraordinary combination of coincidences' or an inside job (he seems to be leaning towards LIHOP).


Another example:
He has an article about Palestinian suicide bombers followed by an article about Israel's actions. The first article never uses the word terror or terrorist or terrorism. The second article is headlinelined 'Israeli Terror' and calls three Israeli Prime Ministers terrorists in the first paragraph.

 

[gtc]

Yeah, just imagine George Bush refusing to renew the license of CBS, NBC or ABC and then asserting, well they can always use the Internet.

John Pilger signed a letter of support for Chavez's actions.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/2007/may/26/leadersandreply.mainsection6

 

[RandFan]

Do you really believe that no other action would be taken against a US TV station that was instrumental in the violent overthrow of the US government, the kidnapping of the US President and the occupation of the White House?

Explain to me again how they were "instrumental" in the violent overthrow?

To answer your question, anyone who committed a crime would be prosecuted. No action could be taken against the TV station.

End of story.

Nearly all of Venezuela's TV stations pump out anti-Chavez propaganda and are left free to broadcast it. I doubt that this situation would be allowed in the US.

It happens daily.