Send in the tanks! (Chavez)

Of course it does. Apparently he was talking about the 2002 coup done by the right upperclass opposition with help from the "chicken coup pitiyanquis" (:D). He has every reason to be paranoid about troublemakers. So what he says is that if the opposition wins in Carabobo and if they start making trouble, like he predicts, then maybe he will end up using tanks.
 
gtc said:
The problem is that the 'useful idiots' of the world have the luxury of deciding that Chavez is joking. The voters of Venezuela are the ones who will be facing Chavez's tanks if he is not joking.
Click to expand...

Actualy that would be a fairly minor problem. More significantly the US threw away any moral authority it had in the area when it failed to oppose the coup against Chavez. Result is that any US complaints look highly hypocritical. Long standing diplomatic protocols mean that europe (king of spain not withstanding) cannot make any significant moves with regards to the problem. The other south american countries mostly have their own problems to worry about or don't want to be seen as too pro-american to their voters.

Result Chavez doesn't really have to worry about about external criticism. Internal critism is growing but runs into problems that actualy for the venzuelen poor he hasn't done that bad a job. If he steps down at the end of his term a case could be made that as south american presidents go he was at least moderately competant if rather egostical.

Will he step down? His history says maybe. He doesn't respect democracy much but he did respect the result of the referendum. He knows there are still powerful people who oppose him and combiened with a genuine popular movement against him that would very much limit his options.
 
Beerina said:
It is necessary to keep up this pretense in order to keep the useful idiots in the West on his side, internationally.
Click to expand...

Try thinking rather than reacting. You entire claim is based on the premise that Chavez cares what they west thinks. He does not. The US blew it's moral authority (if it had any in south america) due to it behaviour over the coup against Chavez. The US is also unlikely to stop buying his oil. As for the rest of the west longstanding diplomatic protocols render them irrelivent.

So where else? South america? To an extent his oil money buys some support. For the rest their condemation is not a major concern. OPEC? Democracy is not a priority for OPEC. China? Russia? Much the same.

Chavez will not oppose elections for internal reasons. Fundimentaly they are of little significance. The damage they can do to his position is limited. His term lasts untill 2013. Chavez gains nothing by throwing away democratic legitimacy (and he is the legitimataly elected president) before that point.
 
WildCat said:
Want to bet?
Click to expand...

Well he's unlikely to get any constitutional changes through so yes that is when his term as elected president comes to an end. Obviously he may then try start a new term as dictator for life but that is a seperate issue.
 
venezuelanalysis said:
[...] In total, Chávez’s party won 17 out of the 22 states in which governors were elected and obtained about 5.4 million votes in these contests, which would be about 57% of the total vote. In the 2004 regional elections Chávez’s candidates won in 20 out of the 22 gubernatorial contests. However, in the year or two before this election, governors in three of these states (in Aragua, Guarico, and Sucre states) switched over to the opposition.

Meanwhile, the opposition won five states, including the two most populous states, in addition to the Capital District of Caracas. Four of these victories represented a switch from PSUV control to opposition control (Miranda, Tachira, Carabobo, and Greater Caracas), while in two the opposition maintained its control (Zulia and Nueva Esparta). [...]
Click to expand...

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news/3983
 
gtc said:
If he doesn't oppose them, why is he threatening to send in the tanks if the vote goes agains him?
Click to expand...

Doesn't oppose the elections the posible results(and he is likely to now accept the results). Why did he say that? Various reasons. Chavez isn't always that easy to read so could be a caluated reminder not to try anything or it could be runaway retoric with nothing behind it.
 
geni said:
Questionable. Chavezes past actions strongly suggest he is unsure of army loyalty to him.
Click to expand...
Fair enough.
He hasn't done it againsy any yet.
Click to expand...
Of course not. What we are discussing is the threat of doing so. That is the matter that is troubling. I think we would agree that it would be more troubling were he to let the tanks roll as threatened. Whether or not he could takes us to your other observation. It may all be gas.

DR
 
geni said:
Why even bother holding an election?
Click to expand...
It is necessary to keep up this pretense in order to keep the useful idiots in the West on his side, internationally.
Click to expand...
Try thinking rather than reacting. You entire claim is based on the premise that Chavez cares what they west thinks. He does not. The US blew it's moral authority (if it had any in south america) due to it behaviour over the coup against Chavez.
Click to expand...

Try thinking rather than reacting.

Of course Chavez doesn't think what the US does, officially. However, he cares what the useful idiots in the West think about him.

That is, his apologists in the West, of which it is in his interest to keep stringing along.

Given that, much of the rest of your comment is invalid.

Chavez will not oppose elections for internal reasons. Fundimentaly they are of little significance. The damage they can do to his position is limited. His term lasts untill 2013.
Click to expand...

"Little significance"?

Perhaps if you define "little significance" incorrectly as "throwing him directly out of office".

However, clearly his party losing big in provincial elections is both a probability and a threat to his power in that it will show a building momentum to kick his ass out sooner or later.

Politicians, both provincial and national, will be emboldened to oppose him.

Hence it must be disallowed. With fraudulent claims that "necessitate tanks".

There is a lot more to it than merely directly losing his own election, which, as you point out, isn't up until 2013.

Chavez gains nothing by throwing away democratic legitimacy (and he is the legitimataly elected president) before that point.
Click to expand...

He would throw it away by sending in tanks, or other threats, or supressing media, all of which he has done or is hinting at. It's already an illegitimate presidency due to actions after the election, regardless of how "fair" it was originally.

Perhaps it would stir up more domestic outrage than simply sending in tanks, I would grant that.
 
Beerina said:
Try thinking rather than reacting.

Of course Chavez doesn't think what the US does, officially. However, he cares what the useful idiots in the West think about him.
Click to expand...

Prove it.

"Little significance"?

Perhaps if you define "little significance" incorrectly as "throwing him directly out of office".
Click to expand...

The current elections can't do that.

However, clearly his party losing big in provincial elections is both a probability and a threat to his power in that it will show a building momentum to kick his ass out sooner or later.
Click to expand...

His part won most of the positions up for election. With a couple of exceptions the ones he lost were always going to be rather hard to win in any case.

Politicians, both provincial and national, will be emboldened to oppose him.
Click to expand...

Most of them are memebers of his party so seems unlikely/

Hence it must be disallowed. With fraudulent claims that "necessitate tanks".
Click to expand...

And yet despite your claims that the results equate to "losing big" no tanks have appeared.


He would throw it away by sending in tanks, or other threats,
Click to expand...

Sending in tanks is not a threat it's an action.

or supressing media,
Click to expand...

There are dozens of ways of supressing the media without haveing much impact on your democratic legitimacy. Berlusconi could probably provide you with a list.

all of which he has done or is hinting at. It's already an illegitimate presidency due to actions after the election, regardless of how "fair" it was originally.
Click to expand...

You mean sucessfuly beating a coup attempt just when it appeared to be going so well? Yes I can see how you might have problems with that.

Perhaps it would stir up more domestic outrage than simply sending in tanks, I would grant that.
Click to expand...

Tanks are a risk since Chavez's base hasn't been the army for some time.
 
My feelings on Chavez are simple - democracy is not an imposed monarchy. If the people want an absolutely corrupt man who thinks of himself as a virtual dictator and does not respect the rule of law, well, at least that one won the popular vote too.

Doesn't mean I have to like 'em.
 
WildCat said:
Want to bet?
Click to expand...

If I recall correctly (and I can't remember for the life of me where I read about it), didn't Chavez say after the first attempt that he would not pursue the amendment further, or am I thinking about a different policy of his?

Wither way, if he fails this time I'm guarenteeing he'll pursue it until hios term is up if he has to :\
 
boloboffin said:
Frontline did their latest documentary on Hugo Chavez.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/hugochavez/
Click to expand...
Thank you.

Power corrupts. It's sad and quite pathetic. There was a real possibility for change. I'd be happy for the Venezuelan people to have prosperity with any leader and political system.

Playing to people's fears and turning America into a boogeyman won't solve his nations problems.
 
The only thing I find more ridiculous than Chavez is the impulse among some Americans to treat him as if he matters, giving him the gravitas that he otherwise would never earn. He wants to make a show of American hostility in order to play up his narrative as an underdog savior, and plenty of Americans are more than willing to step up to the plate and validate his status.
 
Childlike Empress

it is not worth the effort.

the Media calls Chavez a dictator and parrots like dudalb and co will repeat that lie and belive it to be true.

Chavez is a Socislist. in the USA they know Socialism is so Evil™ and no free human beeing, no mather how much Social thinking or how poor one is, no one would vote for a socialist. So he is a Dictator.

Once again, nobody is interested when the CIA supports a coup against a elected goverment.

the same people that call Chavez an evil Dictator are proly the same that was so happy with the US support for a Military Dictator in Pakistan.....

it is amusing to read the comments here, could be directly from FOX news.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom