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Using NOFOLLOW when linking to "woo woo" web sites

Apparently, the nfurl tags only work with regular links, not fancy links.

regular link - www.skepticsrock.com

fancy link - skeptics rock chatroom.

I can go back and change the links if you still want, Rolfe.


Pretty please? I know I'm a sad puppy, but it's now personal between me and Maria. If the two links in my posts to her rubbish page are what's keeping her at no. 1 on Google, I want them gone!

I usually use text strings for links 'cos the forum software makes it so easy, but if you can possibly change the format so that the links are regular nofollow ones, please do.

I'll consider it my birthday present!

Rolfe.
 
Widely suspected that google gives little if any weight to forum links.
 
Possibly true, but that page was only showing three external links in total, one from my own page (gone now) and two from my posts here, so on the principle of leaving no stone unturned, I'm in favour of neutralising them.

Rolfe.
 
I like nofollow

I like this idea of nofollow. I hadn't been aware of it, so thank you for bringing it up.

If one were to operate on the assumption that Google uses links (in part) to measure the degree of relevance to search terms, then the nofollow code is a means to specify that the content on the current page should not be construed as relevant to the linked page. I don't think the search engine is smart enough to recognize when one page is saying the oposite of the page it is linking to, especially when many of the same keywords are used. I think the nofollow code is a good way to do it until Google implements sophisticated AI.

If your site says Sylvia Browne is not a psychic, why should her Google ranking for a search on the term "psychics" be improved by your link to her site? You are trying to say she is not relevant to psychic phenomenon, not that she *is* relevant.
 
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I don't think the search engine is smart enough to recognize when one page is saying the oposite of the page it is linking to, especially when many of the same keywords are used. I think the nofollow code is a good way to do it until Google implements sophisticated AI.

If your site says Sylvia Browne is not a psychic, why should her Google ranking for a search on the term "psychics" be improved by your link to her site? You are trying to say she is not relevant to psychic phenomenon, not that she *is* relevant.

That's a really excellent way of looking at it, and I agree.

Hopefully a couple of the folks who originally objected will hop into this thread at some point. They're both very busy people, though.
 
I guess I'm one of the "high profile skeptics" with "too much time on my hands."

I don't support the use of no follow on randi.org. If someone has made content that you want to link to, I think it's proper that they get credit for it. I don't care what the content is. It would be nice if they returned the favor, but that's up to them.

When I consider the extra work it would take to add no follow to all links on randi.org, I'm convinced that it's not the right thing for us to do. (It's not supported by the CMS.. each one would have to be hand edited.)

I know a lot of folks like to see this as a battle, and it might feel good to put that NO FOLLOW tag in there like it's a blow for justice or something. I'd rather see it as an exchange of information, and I have no interest in suppressing other voices, no matter how much I disagree with them.

I don't feel too strongly about this, to be honest.
 
When I consider the extra work it would take to add no follow to all links on randi.org, I'm convinced that it's not the right thing for us to do.
I have a hunch that few, if any, are suggesting that ALL links are rendered as nofollow

Instead, I think, the suggestions/requests are for 'manually applicable tags' (as per [noparse]and [/noparse]

e.g.
It saddens me that [nfurl="[PLAIN]http://www.sliverybrown.woo/i-can-speak-to-your-dead-relatives.rot"[/PLAIN]][/FONT]Ms Slivery Brown[FONT="Courier New"][/nfurl] can publish this nonsense!​

I have no interest in suppressing other voices, no matter how much I disagree with them.
So, if you were the curate of the Church of the Bleeding Heart Liberal, the bookshelf in the foyer would be stocked leaflets advertising courses on homoeopathy and dowsing?

There is is distinction to be made between suppression and promotion

I don't feel too strongly about this, to be honest.
How well you understand the technology, Jeff?
 
Don't understand the idea that a "no follow" means that sites aren't getting "proper credit"? "No Follow" is about search engines and how they currently work, what has that got to do with "proper credit" for other sites?
 
I guess I'm one of the "high profile skeptics" with "too much time on my hands."

I don't support the use of no follow on randi.org. If someone has made content that you want to link to, I think it's proper that they get credit for it. I don't care what the content is. It would be nice if they returned the favor, but that's up to them.

When I consider the extra work it would take to add no follow to all links on randi.org, I'm convinced that it's not the right thing for us to do. (It's not supported by the CMS.. each one would have to be hand edited.)

I know a lot of folks like to see this as a battle, and it might feel good to put that NO FOLLOW tag in there like it's a blow for justice or something. I'd rather see it as an exchange of information, and I have no interest in suppressing other voices, no matter how much I disagree with them.

I don't feel too strongly about this, to be honest.


I totally no-follow that argument!

You really think that Miss Slivery Brown and her mates are all going to be running round posting links to JREF all over the place in a spirit of reciprosity? It's true that JREF already has a high enough domain authority that it doesn't need any more, but why should the fact that a woo site is being spoken of all over the net in terms of disgust and loathing be allowed to boost its search engine rankings?

Nobody has ever suggested or ever would, that all links on JREF be edited. I admit I requested two forum posts of mine to be edited in retrospect (and that wasn't even relating to woo of any kind), but not that I know about the possibility, I'm content that if I want to make a link nofollow, I can do it myself when I make the post.

So far as the JREF site in general is concerned, I take your point about blanket editing. It's not worth it. But it's certainly worth considering when creating new content.

Rolfe.
 

Follow the very first link in this thread, and I explain how to create nofollow links on this and other skeptical forums.

Or from the help menu at upper right, select "Post Formatting Codes" and look for "NFURL". However, I list some gotchas in my link that are not clear from the help.
 
I'm sorry, I mispoke. I did not mean 'all' links, I meant all links to sites that I or the JREF deemed to link to material with ideas that we don't support. Which requires a judgment, and that's a whole other issue.

By default, a link boosts someone's pagerank. You have to go out of your way to remove that boost, or credit, and I just don't think that's right. It would be like giving a lecture about the KKK and refusing to mention their name. If you're going to link to someone's site, I believe you should do so with the full knowledge that they'll get a pagerank boost. If this is unacceptable, don't link. I, however, find it acceptable.

If someone googles Sylvia Browne, I want them to find her site. I also want them to find our site, and the posts on the forum, etc.

To answer Rolfe.. if people are talking about a site, that means it's important, and its pagerank should increase. I know that Syvlia isn't going to link here. That's her problem.

It's just my opinion.. I'm countering arguments I see as valid, but in my calculation, the proper thing to do is not use a nofollow tag. I have no problem if people want to use them... but I won't.
 
Follow the very first link in this thread, and I explain how to create nofollow links on this and other skeptical forums.
:eek: Oh #$@# ... of all the things I missed, I missed that the most :o

For some reason, I was under the mistaken impression that these forums did not currently accommodate use of the vBulletin nfurl tag

And now, re-reading the OP, I have a hunch why/how I became so confuzzled...

Back in September I posted a blog entry titled "Not just for spam anymore: NOFOLLOW for skepticism". <snip/>please read it if you are not familiar with NOFOLLOW and what it does.<snip/>

This tag has one effect, and one effect only: it prevents Google from considering your link as part of the "ranking" of the other site. That's all it does. <snip/>

How much trouble this is depends alot on how comfortable you are with HTML and what tools you use to maintain your web site.<snip/>

Are there good reasons we should or should not be doing this? </snip/>
As I am familiar with nofollow - both in robots.txt files and as an attribute of the anchor (<a>...</a>) tag - I only skimmed the blog (missing the bit on these forums), mistaking tag and attribute
<meaculpa/>
:(

Anyhoo...

Back to the discussion
 
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By default, a link boosts someone's pagerank. You have to go out of your way to remove that boost, or credit, and I just don't think that's right.

Why is the default behavior in any way significant? It is completely an accident of how HTML has been designed by many different people over time.

Suppose NOFOLLOW had caught on in a very large way among web tool vendors. Further suppose that every single content system and HTML editing tool had made rel="nofollow" the default everywhere you create a link.

Then you'd have to "go out of your way" to grant someone a page rank boost. Would that change your attitude? Why?

It would be like giving a lecture about the KKK and refusing to mention their name.

I completely disagree with this analogy. I can mention Sylvia Browne hundreds of times without linking to her. Readers of my article can be on her site in just a matter of a few clicks. Indeed, with nofollow I can link directly to her and provide access to all her nonsense in ONE click. How am I denying her anything important?

I think a more appropriate analogy would be this completely hypothetical scenario:

There are two ways to discuss other people or organizations in public. One is widely known by everyone, and another is buried in an obscure regulation that most people don't know.

The widely known rule allows you to talk about anyone in any way that you want, as long as you donate $1 to that person or organization's billboard advertising fund. These are links without nofollow, they implicitly provide advertising to the other organization, advertising that organization can use in ways you have no control over and cannot anticipate.

The other, lesser known rule, allows you to talk about them in exactly the same way, but you mail a post card about this to the government to waive the $1 fee. Everyone still knows exactly who you are talking about and can contact them equally well, but you are not required to provide advertising funds. These are nofollow links.

Personally, faced with those two choices, I would mail the postcard.

If someone googles Sylvia Browne, I want them to find her site. I also want them to find our site, and the posts on the forum, etc.

Jeff, you cannot prevent another site from appearing in a search engine via nofollow. Indeed, you can link directly to her with nofollow and the reader doesn't even have to type her name. Where is she losing anything?

Why should anyone other than the site's own webmaster feel responsible for their search engine placement? I certainly don't feel any obligation to boost JREF's placement, and in fact I do not have JREF linked in my blogroll.

To answer Rolfe.. if people are talking about a site, that means it's important, and its pagerank should increase.

Ah, but remember the basic assumption of Google's Page Rank algorithm is that links are positive in nature. Quoting from the Page Rank patent:

Because citations, or links, are ways of directing attention, the important documents correspond to those documents to which the most attention is directed. Thus, a high rank indicates that a document is considered valuable by many people or by important people.

Is Sylvia Browne's content "valuable"? Does JREF officially endorse Sylvia Browne's content as "valuable"? Whether you realize it or agree with it or not, that is what Google's robots are deriving from your links.
 
I'm sorry, I mispoke. I did not mean 'all' links, I meant all links to sites that I or the JREF deemed to link to material with ideas that we don't support. Which requires a judgment, and that's a whole other issue.
And washing your hands of the issue is consistent with the aims of a critical thinking forum on which planet? :confused:

By default, a link boosts someone's pagerank. You have to go out of your way to remove that boost, or credit, and I just don't think that's right.
Fair enough... as long as you explain why you, as a staff member, see fit to hold such an opinion and and advertise it where the whole whirled can read it

It would be like giving a lecture about the KKK and refusing to mention their name.
From my perspective, this is merely a straw-hued non sequitur that does nothing to explain why

If you're going to link to someone's site, I believe you should do so with the full knowledge that they'll get a pagerank boost.
Argument ad nauseum ain't persuasive

If this is unacceptable, don't link. I, however, find it acceptable.
Yep... I get the picture... sadly, the detail is a bit blurry

If someone googles Sylvia Browne, I want them to find her site. I also want them to find our site, and the posts on the forum, etc.
Erm... they will... I fail to see the relevance of this 'point', bearing in mind that the issue here is how the use of nofollow can, on a site such as this with relatively high pagerank, affect how highly her site ranks in the SERPs

To answer Rolfe.. if people are talking about a site, that means it's important, and its pagerank should increase.
Yeah... like if people are talking about diarrhea, it means its important, and its incidence should increase, right?

I know that Syvlia isn't going to link here. That's her problem.
Please, do explain what you mean by this


It's just my opinion.. I'm countering arguments I see as valid, but in my calculation
:confused: Which calculation?

the proper thing to do is not use a nofollow tag.
So you keep saying... but - from what I can decipher - you are saying it without any reasoning, which I find rather curious - assuming that you were one of those alluded to in the OP ("definitely experienced skeptics. I have emailed them and asked them to participate in this thread so we can hear their reasoning")

I have no problem if people want to use them... but I won't.
Fairy nuff... that's what you won't do... will you address my comment made above?

my comment made above said:
So, if you were the curate of the Church of the Bleeding Heart Liberal, the bookshelf in the foyer would be stocked leaflets advertising courses on homoeopathy and dowsing?

There is is distinction to be made between suppression and promotion
 
How is it skeptical to go out of our way to hinder people's access to the actual claims?

How is it skeptical to not list and read the sources?

Sorry, chaps: We should link to Sylvia Browne and all the other heartless bastards who scam the bereaved, all we can - while we also link to the sources that examine their claims.

We have nothing to hide - do we?

We are not afraid if people read what they want - are we?
 
How is it skeptical to go out of our way to hinder people's access to the actual claims?

How is it skeptical to not list and read the sources?

It's not. But krelnik isn't suggesting that.

We have nothing to hide - do we?

We are not afraid if people read what they want - are we?
No and no. But you're completely missing the point.
 
Reading these posts I have to say I'm baffled by the objections to what krelnik is suggesting.

This is not censorship, this is not hiding anything. All we're saying is when you link to a woo site (as you should if you're quoting it), just don't raise that site's Google ranking. That's just common sense.

Why would you possibly want to raise a woo site's Google ranking?
 

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