Are men really more violent than women?

[Tailgater]

I have found that remaining calm is a fine way to infuriate a slightly angry wife.

Oh ya. I think there is a satisfaction some women get when men lose it. It means they've won on some sick level. I had a volatile relationship with my first wife. We were too young and the sex was great, but we needed to mature. One of us more than the other. <cough> She would say anything in an argument to try and get me pissed off. She would bring up something from years ago, out of the blue, in a completely unrelated argument, just to say, "oh ya, well you....blah, blah blah.....in your face". Getting mad just gave her the excuse to point out that I was a typical angry male and couldn't control myself. The day I just sat there and told her I no longer wanted to fight with her was when stuff started flying across the room.

I'm so glad for the wife I'm with now (six years of peace) and see my ex fighting with her new husband (haha).

 

[Tailgater]

As is arguing in the JREF manner.

That is the quickest way to end up on the couch.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

No, he just said the answer was biological and left it at that; no possible social influence at all.

I have. I didn't see them making cars, writing philosophy, or debating points. Sorry.

I know you, Skeptigirl. You throw everything behind the biological, and you ignore almost all of the social. You've done it continuously in other threads.

Apparently you don't know me at all.

Social life is far more complex than you think. Tribes, cultures, languages, and entire ways of looking at the world has been constructed just based on local social influence, even within the same species; can you point to ANY other species and show such an incredible difference... and then the ability from one of that species to go from one tribe to another and assimilate into the local tribe, even though it's almost radically different in almost all ways?



I'm not sure. How would you hypothesize the giant leap of going from "Ook Ook" to Einstein?

I have a theory; the entire human race has been a giant leap out of the pattern.

That depends on what you mean by "giant".

Have you ever seen me post about political viewpoints being genetic? Belief in woo being genetic? Asian culture genes? African culture genes?

You may have seen me post about the behaviors of my dogs which had to be genetic since there is no place they could have learned how to successfully dig up moles. Nor could they have 'learned' how the dogs they met in the first year of life were 'in the pack' while any new dogs they met after that were enemies.

Having worked in a newborn nursery, I saw a considerable degree of genetic personality present at birth and the variety was extensive. My son has many of his dad's personality traits despite not even meeting his dad until he was 12 and then only seeing him a couple times a year.

Our being is part nurture and part nature. I don't believe it is all nature by any stretch. But you may be underestimating the degree of the influence of nurture.

 

[ConspiRaider]

...I'm so glad for the wife I'm with now (six years of peace) and see my ex fighting with her new husband (haha).

Tailgater, you are a cruel man.

I did the marriage thing twice meself, but unfortunately also misfired on the 2nd one. Them's the breaks.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I'd like to introduce the "aggression is entirely biological" people to the Fafafini. Fafafini are a phenomenon unique to Samoan culture, in which young boys are raised as girls. This is typically done in a household where there are insufficient daughters because Samoans distinctly divide different duties to the two genders, with women doing domestic work and men doing hard labour.

Fafafini are considered women in all respects - for example a Fafafini will only have sex with straight males and it is not considered homosexual intercourse.

Anyone who is familiar with Samoan males knows they can be very aggressive and they're also genetically very big and powerful. Fafafini are also large and powerful, however the interesting thing is they are generally incredibly soft-spoken, passive, and non aggressive - indeed, fafafini are often far less aggressive than Samoan females.

This looks to be an incredibly complex behavioral situation including the problems inherent in observing them. I can't see anything in this extensive discussion which confirms your conclusions about these men being "generally incredibly soft-spoken, passive, and non aggressive". Do we know how they behave in private, do we know if the observers who recorded the behaviors were biased or if the Fa'afafine behaved normally when observed?

Looking at this source, Redefining Fa'afafine: Western Discourses and the Construction of Transgenderism in Samoa , it would seem the behaviors of these men are not easily observed let alone well understood.

There was another famous case of David Reimer who was raised as a boy after his penis was damaged in a circumcision and some doctor manipulated the parents in order to make an experiment of the boy. He remained a boy despite being completely raised as a girl in every way and it took a considerable toll on him psychologically. He eventually committed suicide. It would seem that in Reimer's case the physician's hypothesis, nurture can overcome nature, failed.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

There are many ways for aggression to manifest itself and not all those would be violent. I'm not suggesting men are inherently violent. I am suggesting they have genetic components which differ from women and which predispose to greater potential to be violent. The result is more men are violent or men are more violent on the whole than women. And I am defining violence here as measured by degree of inhibition to harm.

 

[gumboot]

This looks to be an incredibly complex behavioral situation including the problems inherent in observing them. I can't see anything in this extensive discussion which confirms your conclusions about these men being "generally incredibly soft-spoken, passive, and non aggressive". Do we know how they behave in private, do we know if the observers who recorded the behaviors were biased or if the Fa'afafine behaved normally when observed?

The observer in this case would be me and those I know. They're understandably reluctant to get involved in any sort of palagi research that has to do with sex, given how poorly they have been presented in the past.

Looking at this source, Redefining Fa'afafine: Western Discourses and the Construction of Transgenderism in Samoa , it would seem the behaviors of these men are not easily observed let alone well understood.

I think part of the thing that makes it an issue for them is they don't really understand why anyone is even wanting to look at them. As far as they're concerned they're just women, like any other woman. No one is trying to study their sister, so why them?

There was another famous case of David Reimer who was raised as a boy after his penis was damaged in a circumcision and some doctor manipulated the parents in order to make an experiment of the boy. He remained a boy despite being completely raised as a girl in every way and it took a considerable toll on him psychologically. He eventually committed suicide. It would seem that in Reimer's case the physician's hypothesis, nurture can overcome nature, failed.

There's rather a few fundamental differences in this case... I'm not sure it's even remotely comparable with Fafafini.

From the wiki link:

Psychological support for the reassignment and surgery was provided by John Money, who continued to see Brenda for years, both for treatment and to assess the outcome.

...

Money often took pictures of them both in the nude, claiming it was for scientific comparison, but Reimer claimed that Money sexually abused both twins and took far too many photos for their shoots to be deemed innocent. This was a large factor contributing to his fear of Money and desire to never go back for his help.

...

However, Brenda had experienced the visits to Baltimore as traumatic rather than therapeutic and when Dr. Money started pressuring the family to bring "her" in for surgery, in which a vagina would be created, the family discontinued the follow-up visits.

...

Brenda did not identify as a girl. She was ostracized and bullied by peers, and neither frilly dresses nor female hormones made her feel female. By the age of 15, Brenda was experiencing suicidal depression, and told her parents she would commit suicide if they made her see John Money again. In 1980, Brenda's parents told her the truth about her gender reassignment, following advice from Brenda's endocrinologist and psychiatrist. At 13, Brenda decided to assume a male gender identity, calling herself David. After learning of the new relationship with his ex-sister, Brian began to experience a pattern of mental disturbance and later developed schizophrenia.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

There was another famous case of David Reimer who was raised as a boy after his penis was damaged in a circumcision and some doctor manipulated the parents in order to make an experiment of the boy. He remained a boy despite being completely raised as a girl in every way and it took a considerable toll on him psychologically. He eventually committed suicide. It would seem that in Reimer's case the physician's hypothesis, nurture can overcome nature, failed.

And then there is the case of Frank Cauldhame who was brought up to think he was a boy who had had his penis bitten off by a dog, but in fact was a girl given hormones by her father in a twisted experiment. Frank didn't turn out so well...

 

[ConspiRaider]

And then there is the case of Frank Cauldhame who was brought up to think he was a boy who had had his penis bitten off by a dog, but in fact was a girl given hormones by her father in a twisted experiment. Frank didn't turn out so well...

The doggie who scarfed up Frank's penis - did he and/or she subsequently become more aggressive?

 

[Darat]

The doggie who scarfed up Frank's penis - did he and/or she subsequently become more aggressive?

No just a bit waspish.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

One girl was called Jean Marie
Another little girl was called Felicity
Another little girl was Sally Joy
The other was me, and I'm a boy

My name is Bill and I'm a headcase
They practice making up on my face
Yeah, I feel lucky if I get trousers to wear
Spend ages taking hairpins from my hair

I'm a boy, I'm a boy
But my ma won't admit it
I'm a boy, I'm a boy
But if I say I am I get it

Put your frock on Jean Marie
Plait your hair Felicity
Paint your nails, little Sally Joy
Put this wig on, little boy

I wanna play cricket on the green
Ride my bike across the street
Cut myself and see my blood
I wanna come home all covered in mud

I'm a boy, I'm a boy
But my ma won't admit it
I'm a boy, I'm a boy, I'm a boy
I'm a boy, I'm a boy, I'm a boy, I'm a boy
I'm a boy, I'm a boy, I'm__ a__ boy__

 

[ConspiRaider]

Good one, Skeptigirl. I'd forgotten about that from The Who.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

One of my all time favorite bands.

I saw Roger Daltrey live and I was forever impressed. Reign o'er me.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Duplicate

 

[JoeyDonuts]

Was that the show where Moon OD'd on gorilla biscuits and the legendary random fan/drummer Scot Halpin came up and finished the set?

If so that makes ye a wee bit dated, lass.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

No, Moon was long dead when I saw the Who. But I am probably still a wee bit dated.

 

[JoeyDonuts]

I'm still yelling at Tommy. Not sure if he can hear me.

 

[Ivan The Song Boy]

Yes.

 

[Soapy Sam]

Is the thread referring to actual violence or potential violence?

I was recently treated to the sight of two young women (I will not say "ladies"), both very drunk, punching, kicking and scratching each other outside a public house.
When a male youth (I think the boyfriend of one of them) attempted to intervene, both turned on him. Their language was foul and their lack of control total. Had two men been attempting to do so much damage as they seemed to be trying for, someone might easily have died.
I was a passer by and have no idea what started this, but suspect a trivial argument simply went out of control. It's far from the first such incident I've seen in the last decade, though I do not recall ever witnessing such a thing before 1995 or thereabouts.

My point is that alcohol abuse appears to render some females as aggressively violent as any males- but they appear to lack the social tactics for avoiding Defcon4 type confrontations that most youths acquire in school. The simple truth is that men learn very young to suppress anger, precisely because it can get you hurt. Women do not seem to be taught the same tactics.

So- is a girl who gets drunk and attacks someone once in her life more, or less, violent than a man who may wish to kill numerous people, yet in fact goes through life without even a brawl after primary school?

 

[gumboot]

Is the thread referring to actual violence or potential violence?

...

So- is a girl who gets drunk and attacks someone once in her life more, or less, violent than a man who may wish to kill numerous people, yet in fact goes through life without even a brawl after primary school?

I have been trying to get the OP to clarify this exact point for some time.