Credo: what and why I believe

cj.23

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cj.23
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In another thread Volatile asked the excellent question as to why I converted from atheism to theism, and that subset of theism known as Christianity.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=4216892#post4216892

I very much doubt anyone gives a hoot, and I am not that bothered about explaining my reasoning (or lack thereof) for three reasons

i) I don't actually know the why. I distrust 'testimonies' as retrospective justifications of the ideological change -- I could tell the story in thirty different ways, and each would tell you more about who I am now and what I am trying to communicate now than anything to do with my thinking about a decade ago. Waybackmachine can find some of my atheist era writings when I attacked Christianity I'm sure, and if anyone actually had the slightest reason they could construct a more reasoned and objective view than I could. I simply don't know - I think I know, but I'm not able to recall all the factors, and some may not even be relevant -- I just thought they were.

ii) My personal story is completely irrelevant to the question of if my beliefs bear any realtion to objective truth. If I had created a new theory of great scientific merit, or sone something noble or infamous, maybe the metaphysical speculations of my late twenties would interest someone. In fact, my reasoning may well be flawed, my story is tedious, and I doubt anyone would care enough to read it. I'm afraid it would just be boring ego-m****bation.

iii) I'm probably wrong on lots of things. So thinking for yourself is far more useful than worrying about how i came to hold my beliefs.

Having said all that, I'm a Christian, a convert from atheism to agnosticism to theism, hold fairly mainstream Christian beliefs and will cheerfully discuss them with anyone remotely interested. I'm quite used to dialogue with atheists, I'm not out to convert anyone, and I really don't mind if you think I'm crazy. I will however cheerfully answer questions if, as volatiles questions seems to suggest, some people are interested in thsi stuff.

cj x
 
cj.23 said:
In another thread Volatile asked the excellent question as to why I converted from atheism to theism, and that subset of theism known as Christianity.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=4216892#post4216892

I very much doubt anyone gives a hoot, and I am not that bothered about explaining my reasoning (or lack thereof)...
Click to expand...


So as a result of a question about your reasons for conversion, you created an entirely separate thread about the reasons for your conversion in order to say that you won't be saying anything about the reasons for your conversion in the thread which your created about the reasons for your conversion.

Beautiful.
 
I'm afraid you did no such thing. Atheism is not a set of beliefs. It has no scripture, no revelation, and no authority. You can no more convert from being an atheist than you can convert from being a non-stamp collector.
 
ImaginalDisc said:
I'm afraid you did no such thing. Atheism is not a set of beliefs. It has no scripture, no revelation, and no authority. You can no more convert from being an atheist than you can convert from being a non-stamp collector.
Click to expand...

Are you sure I can't convert from being a non-stamp collector to being a stamp collector? It doesn't seem to be all that difficult.
 
quixotecoyote said:
So as a result of a question about your reasons for conversion, you created an entirely separate thread about the reasons for your conversion in order to say that you won't be saying anything about the reasons for your conversion in the thread which your created about the reasons for your conversion.

Beautiful.
Click to expand...

Well I will discuss my beliefs now - I just don't think the reasoning behind them is the reasoning from when I converted. Simple honesty, but yes, well criitiqued! :D

Seriously though, of course I will discuss my conversion. I just don't claim it actually amounts to anything of evidential value. However a dialogue about some of the beliefs might be fun and interesting, if you get my drift...

cj x
 
ImaginalDisc said:
I'm afraid you did no such thing. Atheism is not a set of beliefs. It has no scripture, no revelation, and no authority. You can no more convert from being an atheist than you can convert from being a non-stamp collector.
Click to expand...

I never said it said, but sure the word conversion is probably inappropriate. OK, I started believing in a deity, and hence went from not. :)

cj x
 
So you literally believe jesus christ died for your sins?

Because if not I don't really see the point of labeling yourself a "christian."
 
The thing that I'm curious about is what happened in your mind to decide you thought there was a god as opposed to there being none. I personally can't imagine making that decision. I recognize some of the basic tenets of Chrsitianity to be a good way to live, but I don't go for anything supernatural.
 
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I guess the first question is, "What kind of Christian are you?"

Saying, "I'm a Christian" or "I believe in the Bible" means less than nothing, really...since it actually can mean so many different things. So let's clarify.

Do you believe that the Bible is the inerrant, inspired Word of God? That everything written in the Bible is true, and meant to be taken literally?

Do you believe that Jesus literally died, and came back to life, and that everyone who does not accept Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior will suffer for eternity in Hell?

For that matter...do you believe that women suffer the pain of childbirth as punishment for Eve's sin in eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil? Or, if you want to get away from the Old Testament stuff, do you believe the New Testament teachings that women should cover their heads in church, and should not preach?

Just trying to establish where in the vast range of possible "Christian" beliefs you actually fall :)
 
ImaginalDisc said:
You can no more convert from being an atheist than you can convert from being a non-stamp collector.
Click to expand...

quixotecoyote said:
Are you sure I can't convert from being a non-stamp collector to being a stamp collector?
Click to expand...

Maybe ImaginalDisc requires us to use a separate word, since convert comes with so much baggage, I'd suggest trying the following synonyms:

- Change
- Switch
- Transclownomorph

:D
 
ImaginalDisc said:
I'm afraid you did no such thing. Atheism is not a set of beliefs. It has no scripture, no revelation, and no authority. You can no more convert from being an atheist than you can convert from being a non-stamp collector.
Click to expand...
I understand your argument...but think it is overly sophistic.

At one point, this person did not believe in god. They had a worldview based on that lack of belief. At some point, their worldview changed. In fact, it is logically impossible to argue that this person did not change.

"Change" means transition or transformation from one state to another. There was a previous state, and the current state. The two are different, and distinguishable from each other.

Same thing with "converting"...you can't convert "to" something without also converting "from" something. You are converting "from" one particular state "to" another particular state.

If the "previous" state in this case was not "atheist", then what was it? What exactly did this person "change" from?
 
I may be in the minority here in thinking that a switch from atheism to theism is about as significant as a change in laundry soap brands.

I'll tell you why I switched brands:

Brand 'x' became cheaper than brand 'y'...yet they were identical chemistry wise.

Switching from theism to Christianity, however, is like buying a new, sexier washing machine.
 
I think a few of the responses have ignored something: there is a human being at the other end of that keyboard

Friendly and lively indeed.
 
quarky said:
I may be in the minority here in thinking that a switch from atheism to theism is about as significant as a change in laundry soap brands.

I'll tell you why I switched brands:

Brand 'x' became cheaper than brand 'y'...yet they were identical chemistry wise.

Switching from theism to Christianity, however, is like buying a new, sexier washing machine.
Click to expand...

So what's your particular persuasion? Sounds like you might be a Whites Supremacist.
 
Right, let's play. :) Sorry I was delayed by being forced to work, something I am not suited to... I did not mean to ignore anyone. Please be as blunt and direct in calling me a credulous woo merchant as you want, and please feel free to discuss your own belief systems, and to open this to wider questions of theism etc. I know we have lots of Christians, Buddhists, atheists, agnostics and presumably some Jains, Hindus, neo-pagans etc, etc. I could go on - Sikh, Zoroastrians, Thelemic types - but we would be here all night. This is an open party.

I'd ask, because i'd never try to dictate, that you are willing to a) consider the possibility you may be wrong, as I freely acknowledge, indeed suspect to be the case in many instances with regard to my own beliefs, and that b) religion is a target for scrutiny every bit as much as any other woo claim - I can dish it out, so I'm happy to take it (and let's face it we all have the 'woo we used to do' clanking it's metaphorical chains in the closets of our pasts) and c) aren't here to threaten other people with hellfire or being turned in to a sacred Mao button and being distributed to the poor in the region of Thud, let us commence. Join in - this is not a thread about what cj.23 the third rate ghosthunter believes in in terms of religion or no religion - it's what we all believe in. I'm pretty certain that the excellent Beth, DR, Meadmaker. arthwollipot and many others, believers and non-believers alike, can run rings round me in their knowledge of Christian theology, but I'll discuss honestly my own beliefs -- please don't make it a solo ego-thon/ cj- bash-athon!

I'm just sick of drive by trolling, "burn in hell you sinners" and rampant fundiesim type post from any faith/non-faith perspective, and I don't think we should be so British (or maybe US?) as to think that religion should never be talked about in public. Let's talk... and i'm with Dawkins here, the idea of "respect" for religious beliefs should not enter in to it.

One polite request -- let's talk beliefs, not people. I'm a lazy often bewildered crap ghosthunter -- I freely acknowledge my failings, rendering ad hominems pretty pointless. Let's stick it to the actual beliefs, not the believers/non-believers :)

Enough preamble -- I'll start answering. Just jump in and start discussing your beliefs as you see fit: Hey, ****, it's a forum, you'll do that anyway, I can't make any rules on how the threads run - the JREF do that well - but hell, I can ask! :)
cj x
 
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Having looked at your sig...just felt it was fair to mention that I was born and raised Anglican, my dad is an Anglican minister in fact.
 
Hi cj.23,

which particular "mainstream Christian beliefs" do you espouse? Which church do you find closest to what you believe?

And if I may ask, what was the impetus behind your migration from atheism to Christianity? Would you say it was for emotional reasons? I ask because it seems to me most of those who started off as atheists but converted to Christianity seem to do it because they find in atheism no answers to emotional problems, and they personally find atheism as evidenced by many to be a dessicated over-intellectualism (it needn't be so, but often is); thinking of such people as C.S. Lewis, or Karen Armstrong (who went from Christianity to atheism to a vague panentheism).

Did you ever consider secular humanism as an answer to ethical and emotional problems?

Looking forward to the discussion.
 
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