Acupuncture placebo better than acupuncture

[DC]

Yeah, too small. The result seems to depend upon a few unusually high readings that happened to be sorted into the acupuncture group.

Linda

I have not enough knowledge into the "messurment instruments / techniques" they used.

It is suprising me that they got published in peer reviewed journals, especially considering the claims they make, like that it is evidence that Acupuncture is working painkilling and also that it is not a placebo.


Out of subjective experiance i agree that Acupuncture seems to be painkilling atleast.
But i dont know if it cannot still be a placebo effect.
Nor would i claim the studie to be Evidence, but would say it is another indication that could justify further studies and research.

 

[fls]

"Sixteen volunteers were anesthetized by propofol...", from this it isn't clear to me that the subjects were unconscious. "Anesthesia" refers to " Total or partial loss of sensation, especially tactile sensibility."

Propofol is a general anaesthetic - i.e. they were unconscious.

Linda

 

[Jeff Corey]

When I searched for it prior to that post, I got a couple of hits for "conscious
sedation":

Automated Responsiveness Test (ART) Predicts Loss of Consciousness and Adverse Physiologic Responses during Propofol Conscious Sedation.

CLINICAL INVESTIGATIONS

Anesthesiology. 94(4):585-592, April 2001.
Doufas, Anthony G. M.D. *; Bakhshandeh, Maryam M.D. *; Bjorksten, Andrew R. Ph.D. +; Greif, Robert M.D. *; Sessler, Daniel I. M.D. ++
Abstract:
Background: The authors evaluated a device designed to provide conscious sedation with propofol (propofol-air), or propofol combined with 50% nitrous oxide (N2O; propofol-N2O)...

But if they were unconscious, wouldn't a sham acuncture placbo with the needles inserted ar the "wrong" points be appropriate?

 

[DC]

When I searched for it prior to that post, I got a couple of hits for "conscious
sedation":

Automated Responsiveness Test (ART) Predicts Loss of Consciousness and Adverse Physiologic Responses during Propofol Conscious Sedation.

CLINICAL INVESTIGATIONS

Anesthesiology. 94(4):585-592, April 2001.
Doufas, Anthony G. M.D. *; Bakhshandeh, Maryam M.D. *; Bjorksten, Andrew R. Ph.D. +; Greif, Robert M.D. *; Sessler, Daniel I. M.D. ++
Abstract:
Background: The authors evaluated a device designed to provide conscious sedation with propofol (propofol-air), or propofol combined with 50% nitrous oxide (N2O; propofol-N2O)...

But if they were unconscious, wouldn't a sham acuncture placbo with the needles inserted ar the "wrong" points be appropriate?

the full study

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Did you also read about that 2004 studie from the Jena University?

There are a number of studies suggesting acupuncture has some effect. The problem is the results are not consistent and repeatable. If results are not consistently repeatable, then one questions the outcome of the studies that showed an effect. That's the way science works.

 

[Jeff Corey]

As well as studies suggesting that sticking needles into people at random locations do, too.
But you knew that.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

As well as studies suggesting that sticking needles into people at random locations do, too.
But you knew that.

Yes, that's additional reason to question acupuncture research. It seems sham acupuncture works and using random insertion points works in some studies. That certainly suggests nothing of significance is really occurring along any "chi" lines.

 

[DC]

and did you ever try it out?

 

[fls]

It is suprising me that they got published in peer reviewed journals, especially considering the claims they make, like that it is evidence that Acupuncture is working painkilling and also that it is not a placebo.

I don't understand why that would prevent it from being published in a peer-reviewed journal.

Linda

 

[fls]

When I searched for it prior to that post, I got a couple of hits for "conscious
sedation":

I'm sorry. I should have realized that it wasn't obvious.

But if they were unconscious, wouldn't a sham acuncture placbo with the needles inserted ar the "wrong" points be appropriate?

That's a good question. I'm inclined to say that since we've already demonstrated that the whole acupuncture idea is wrong - acupoints and even actual insertion don't matter when compared with true acupuncture - any further investigation should be directed at discovering whether poking needles at or in people has a specific effect beyond expectation. However, since you still see research testing 'acupuncture', like this one, with attention paid to how the insertion sites are selected based on TCM, it suggests that you are right - that we still need to further discredit acupuncture in order to get people to start looking at needling instead. Or to not bother with either.

Linda

 

[DC]

I don't understand why that would prevent it from being published in a peer-reviewed journal.

Linda

because the evidence is weak. because the study was much to small i think.

 

[DC]

Why Discrediting it?

it is slowly geting more acceptance in modern science.

Even the WHO has published papers with recommandations for use of acupuncture in specific cases.

Also dont i think we can conclude yet that there is no Meridian system.
There was and is alot interesting research beeing done into it with radioactive markers.

 

[Jeff Corey]

Evidence?

 

[DC]

Evidence?

Evidence for what?

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

<snip>

Also dont i think we can conclude yet that there is no Meridian system.

<snip>

[obama]

Yes, we can.

[/obama]

 

[DC]

[obama]

Yes, we can.

[/obama]

We will se what Changes he brings

 

[DC]

so what are you thinking about the studies into the meridian system with radioactive markers? where those studies also flawed?

 

[Jeff Corey]

Evidence for what?

The meridian system that you implied was being traced with radioactive markers.

 

[DC]

The meridian system that you implied was being traced with radioactive markers.

eerm, when you can conclude that there is no meridan system, i assumed you did read the scientific research into it.

but when you dont know about it, i can provide some links tomorow.

 

[DC]

Isotopic approach to the visualization of acupuncture meridians. Agressologie. 1984 Nov;25(10):1107-11. PMID: 6097132

Study of acupuncture meridians using radioactive tracers. Bull Acad Natl Med. 1985 Oct;169(7):1071-5. PMID: 3008958

Do Meridians of Acupuncture Exist ? A Radioactive Tracer Study of the Bladder Meridian. Am J Acup. Vol. 9, 3:251-256. 1981

Experimental Study on Radioactive Pathways of Hypodermically Injected Technetium-99m. J Nucl Med 33: 403-407. 1992

A Study on the Migration of Radioactive Tracers after Injection at Acupoints. Am J Acup. Vol. 20. 3:245-256. 1992

Approach to the characteristics of the movement of qixue in meridians by means of radionuclide imaging. Zhen Ci Yan Jiu. 1990;15(4):315-8. PMID: 2177384

Differences in acupuncture point SP-10 and non-acupuncture point following subcutaneous injection of Tc-99m pertechnetate. Am J Chin Med. 1993;21(3-4):221-9. PMID: 8135165


will see if i can find them online.