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The powerlessness of prayer

Here is something from Wikipedia that may contradict that statement:

Here is another quote from Wikipedia:

So, what I was saying may not be so far-fetched.
Here's a cute little snippet from Wikipedia:
This may not apply to my argument but could it be possible to believe in something without making a conscious decision to do so?

Okay, I will agree with you here. It is possible for someone to worship an abstract concept. I thought it was obvious from my post, though, that I was not talking about philosophical postulates, but true facts about the world. If i want to know what drives the sun, or how disease works (or how to fix my car) I don't think I will be asking the Roman Goddess of Truth, or whatever god you worship. I had assumed you were a Christian, but you seem to be wavering on that.
 
Okay, I will agree with you here. It is possible for someone to worship an abstract concept. I thought it was obvious from my post, though, that I was not talking about philosophical postulates, but true facts about the world. If i want to know what drives the sun, or how disease works (or how to fix my car) I don't think I will be asking the Roman Goddess of Truth, or whatever god you worship. I had assumed you were a Christian, but you seem to be wavering on that.
What I meant is that you may be doing something without being aware of it, by holding Truth as paramount.
I am a Christian but I do not think God ignores people who have other beliefs.
 
I am a Christian but I do not think God ignores people who have other beliefs.

Uh-oh! You are on a slippery slope. The first step into indoctrinating a new believer into a religion is to instill the concept that this church is right and all of the others are wrong. Conversely, doubting that fact is a first step toward agnosticism or atheism.

Christianity holds that you either accept Jesus Christ as your savior OR you burn in agony for eternity in hell. Do you buy that?
 
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:rolleyes:

Would you take them out and simply get a four leaf clover?

Why the hell do you have a car in the first place? That's just a device put together with rational thought. I'm assuming you don't use a computer to access the Internet, right? That was devised by rational thought. For you it's all mind control and rabbits feet.

It's amazing that you can simply declare rational thought fantasy but don't mind using all of the technology that relies on it.

I had a car that had obviously been assembled by a tornado going thru a junk yard.
Looked like a Chevy z-28, but what a mass of problems underneath the paint.
 
Uh-oh! You are on a slippery slope. The first step into indoctrinating a new believer into a religion is to instill the concept that this church is right and all of the others are wrong. Conversely, doubting that fact is a first step toward agnosticism or atheism.
Christianity holds that you either accept Jesus Christ as your savior OR you burn in agony for eternity in hell. Do you buy that?
"...for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust."
According to my understanding of my particular brand, it takes an active rebellion and open defiance to deserve punishment. Just not having the proper belief will not do it.
 
"...for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust."
According to my understanding of my particular brand, it takes an active rebellion and open defiance to deserve punishment. Just not having the proper belief will not do it.


That's not what John 14:6 says.

I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

So you are a Christian who just doesn't follow the parts you don't agree with. I'll be damned! I guess I'm a Christian too! I just disagree with everything.
 
What I meant is that you may be doing something without being aware of it, by holding Truth as paramount.
I am a Christian but I do not think God ignores people who have other beliefs.
If truth is not paramount, that would make something else more important. Say, for example, worshiping a god, even if he doesn't really exist.

To clarify the second part of your statement, do you believe that unbelievers go to hell?
 
So you are a Christian who just doesn't follow the parts you don't agree with. I'll be damned! I guess I'm a Christian too! I just disagree with everything.
"...yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table."
Jesus accepted this as a valid argument.
You probably are but do not realize it. You have probably been around it enough to understand the basic premise, which is to love people, instead of hating them.
There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with the normally accepted interpretation of scripture. Jesus did it all the time.
 
If truth is not paramount, that would make something else more important. Say, for example, worshiping a god, even if he doesn't really exist.
To clarify the second part of your statement, do you believe that unbelievers go to hell?
The truth is more important than agreeing with someone just to get along.
I do not think it is possible to worship a god you do not believe in.
I think the correct way to understand Hell is as a metaphor.
 
I was not saying religion is innate. I am saying that the desire to believe in a religion may stem from something that is innate.
A desire? I'm reluctant to accept an emotive term without evidence

A propensity? It seems so

If you interested in this field of human activity, you may well find the following interesting to read, even though it's rather lengthy and has manywords unseparatedby whitespaces

The Evolutionary Psychology of Religion

Steven Pinker
Harvard University
Presented at the annual meeting of the Freedom fromReligion Foundation, Madison, Wisconsin, October 29, 2004, on receipt of “TheEmperor’s New Clothes Award.”

Do we have a “God gene,” or a “God module”? I'm referring toclaims that a number of you may have noticed. Just last week, a cover story of Timemagazine was called "The God Gene: Does our deity compel us to seek a higher power?" Believe it or not, somescientists say yes. And a number of years earlier, there were claims that thehuman brain is equipped with a “God module,” a subsystem of the brain shaped byevolution to cause us to have a religious belief. "Brain's God module mayaffect religious intensity," according to the headline of the LosAngeles Times. In this evening's talk, Iwant to evaluate those claims.

There certainly is a phenomenon that needs to be explained,namely religious beliefs. According to surveys by ethnographers, religion is ahuman universal. In all human cultures, people believe that the soul lives onafter death, that ritual can change the physical world and divine the truth,and that illness and misfortune are caused and alleviated by a variety ofinvisible person-like entities: spirits, ghosts, saints, evils, demons,cherubim or Jesus, devils and gods.

All cultures, you might ask? Yes, all cultures.<snip/>

To answer the “why is Homo sapiens so prone to religious belief?” you first have to distinguishbetween traits that are adaptations,that is, products of Darwinian natural selection, and traits that are byproductsof adaptations, also called spandrels orexaptations. An example: Why is our blood red? Is there some adaptive advantageto having red blood, maybe as camouflage against autumn leaves? Well, that’sunlikely, and we don't need any other adaptive explanation, either. Theexplanation for why our blood is red is that it is adaptive to have a moleculethat can carry oxygen, mainly hemoglobin. Hemoglobin happens to be red whenit's oxygenated, so the redness of our blood is a byproduct of the chemistry ofcarrying oxygen. The color per se was not selected for. Another non-adaptiveexplanation for a biological trait is genetic drift. Random stuff happens inevolution. Certain traits can become fixed through sheer luck of the draw.</snip>

To sum up. The universal propensity toward religious beliefis a genuine scientific puzzle. But many adaptationist explanations forreligion, such as the one featured in Time lastweek, don't, I think, meet the criteria for adaptations. There is analternative explanation, namely that religious psychology is a by-product of manyparts of the mind that evolved for other purposes. Among those purposes one hasto distinguish the benefits to the producer and the benefits to the consumer.Religion has obvious practical effects for producers. When it comes to theconsumers, there are possible emotional adaptations in our desire for health, love and success, possiblecognitive adaptations in our intuitive psychology, and many aspects of ourexperience that seem to provide evidence for souls. Put these together and youget an appeal to a mysterious world of souls to bring about our fondest wishes.
Source: pinker.wjh.harvard.edu/articles/media/2004_10_29_religion.htm
 
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A desire? I'm reluctant to accept an emotive term without evidence
A propensity? It seems so
If you interested in this field of human activity, you may well find the following interesting to read...
There is a man, Howard Bloom, who comes on Coast to Coast frequently and talks about the god module and things. He has a book about a global mind. He may have been who I got the idea of a transferable memory from.
Desire may be better applied to something that happens further down the chain of events.
 
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I like you Ethnikos but this seems to just be a lot of clap trap. No different from any other hodge podge of speculation. Everyone left simply to his or her devices has a different idea about what is true. Is there any reason why we should believe in leprechauns over faeries?

Yes, this is true. How come no one follows up on how my love potion is doing http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=4168463#post4168463

I have an update on my relationship with Doctor Cutty. More Ethnikos, or more Doctor Cutty? You decide.
 
The truth is more important than agreeing with someone just to get along.
I do not think it is possible to worship a god you do not believe in.
I think the correct way to understand Hell is as a metaphor.
.
How many of those 800- number preachers on the Sunday tv really believe what they're selling?
10%, or is that optimistic?
I fail to understand how anyone can be immersed in religion for years, and never finger out the falsity of just about everything about religions.
 
Senex, I'm going to call Cutty for you.

Its a new day.

Well, what did she say? Did you send her a copy of my high school photo? (I was nice and thin back then. You did see I posted that a couple of weeks ago?) I can't be left in suspence. This love potion stuff is not working nor this prayer stuff victims of Nazis tried and failed with. Maybe this internet stuff will work. It's in your hands now quarky. Will Dr. Cutty visit me or will I lose all faith in everything.

I don't mean to pressure you quarky, only one man's faith is in the balance :rolleyes:
 
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There is a man, Howard Bloom, who comes on Coast to Coast frequently and talks about the god module and things. He has a book about a global mind. He may have been who I got the idea of a transferable memory from.
Desire may be better applied to something that happens further down the chain of events.

Coast to Coast AM? With Art Bell? Does he still have General Johnson Jameson on? I used to love that show! Men in black and UFOs and all that.
 
Coast to Coast AM? With Art Bell? Does he still have General Johnson Jameson on? I used to love that show! Men in black and UFOs and all that.

Art has retired to live the life with his teenaged wife and new baby, but the show is still going strong. It's quite entertaining. People will , literaly, believe anything. Plus it helps to be conversant in the various forms of woo when talking to The Gullible Ones.
 
Yes indeed, prayer is powerless to all God haters!!!

:)
I don't hate anything that doesn't exist.
  • That a person prays is not a predictor of his or her success.
  • That a person prays is not a predictor of his or her physical health.
  • That a person prays is not a predictor of his or her emotional health.
It's demonstrable, nothing fails like prayer, for believer and non-believer alike.
 
I don't hate anything that doesn't exist.
  • That a person prays is not a predictor of his or her success.
  • That a person prays is not a predictor of his or her physical health.
  • That a person prays is not a predictor of his or her emotional health.
It's demonstrable, nothing fails like prayer, for believer and non-believer alike.

It’s very simple: If a person keeps on blaspheming, his prayer will not be answered.
Surely you understand this!!!!
The question is do you want to understand, or do you prefer ignorance?

:):):)
 

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