The powerlessness of prayer

[RandFan]

The best optical illusion in the world!

​

For those who haven't seen the video, there are no reasonable rebuttals to the arguments made. It is scientifically demonstrable that prayer is no more effective than 4 leaf clover, horse shoes or gallons of milk. Yes, gallons of milk. Watch the video, please.

 

[Ethnikos]

So you ignore the fact that if you believe in such a merciful god, it is that same god who sadistically set you up for the danger in the first place.

I think I was 13 when this happened. I used to read a lot and I was reading about the old Antarctic explorers and the early conquests of the high mountains. I would climb around on some small cliffs near my house and pretend I was mountain climbing. When I got to a real mountain, I thought I could mess around with it. You can see from the photo of this mountain that I was delusional and I was in a very unforgiving situation.
So, it was not a sadistic God who got me in trouble, it was my own stupidity.

 

[RandFan]

There are a lot of things to be protected from, like fires, wind, waves, cold, and other people. One case where I was saved was from falling off a thousand foot cliff, off a mountain and down to the desert gorge, below.
I do not see how it is ridiculous, unless you mean that you have to go through the act of praying, before you can get saved. Most of the times I was saved was when I did not have the time or presence of mind to pray, or was not fully aware of my danger.

Why are you so special? Why doesn't god save Christian children who die of leukemia, Spinal Muscular Atrophy, cancer and all sorts of infections and accidents. Why did god care so much about you and not about these other children?

Bear in mind that these children don't typically just die. They suffer. Please forgive me for speaking boldly and perhaps rudely but you arrogantly assume that you are god's special child who is well enough not to suffer a life threatening disease and not having to suffer as these children do or you think god is arbitrary and/or capricious.

Is it god's mysterious ways? Why is religious belief not a predictor for mortality? If prayer had any validity then Christian people in given socio-economic status would suffer lower mortality rates than non-Christian or atheistic individuals.

There is no such data.

Prayer, demonstrably, DOESN'T work. You have bought into a delusion. Please watch the above video.

 

[RandFan]

"If God is willing to prevent evil, but is not able to
Then He is not omnipotent.

If He is able, but not willing
Then He is malevolent.

If He is both able and willing
Then whence cometh evil?

If He is neither able nor willing
Then why call Him God?"

--Epicurius' Riddle

 

[Ali]

For those who haven't seen the video, there are no reasonable rebuttals to the arguments made. It is scientifically demonstrable that prayer is no more effective than 4 leaf clover, horse shoes or gallons of milk. Yes, gallons of milk. Watch the video, please.

"If God is willing to prevent evil, but is not able to
Then He is not omnipotent.

If He is able, but not willing
Then He is malevolent.

If He is both able and willing
Then whence cometh evil?

If He is neither able nor willing
Then why call Him God?"

--Epicurius' Riddle

It’s very simple:
The problem is that you’re worshipping things like jugs of milk, and not God; that’s why.....
If you pray to a jug of milk for something, then I’m afraid you won’t get anywhere.....

 

[Hokulele]

Pretty much the same as praying to god. Got it.

So, does god still protect you from trained attack dogs?

 

[RandFan]

It’s very simple:
The problem is that you’re worshipping things like jugs of milk, and not God; that’s why.....
If you pray to a jug of milk for something, then I’m afraid you won’t get anywhere.....

Hokulele beat me to it but it bears repeating.

Praying to a jug of milk is, demonstrably, the same as praying to god. In other words, If you pray to god for something, then I'm afraid you won't get anywhere.

Got it? Or should I say, got milk?

 

[RandFan]

Originally Posted by RandFan "If God is willing to prevent evil, but is not able to
Then He is not omnipotent.

If He is able, but not willing
Then He is malevolent.

If He is both able and willing
Then whence cometh evil?

If He is neither able nor willing
Then why call Him God?"

--Epicurius' Riddle

BTW, Ali, how do you resolve the riddle of Epicurius? Is god both able and willing to prevent evil?

 

[Ali]

Pretty much the same as praying to god. Got it.

So, does god still protect you from trained attack dogs?

I'm happy that you understand that a jug of milk is for drinking........
I’m very much surprised when people pray to jugs of milk, and then complain why they’re not getting anywhere...

And yes, I’m protected from dogs at all times.

 

[Hokulele]

And yes, I’m protected from dogs at all times.

Then why did you give up on the Million Dollar Challenge?

 

[Ali]

Then why did you give up on the Million Dollar Challenge?

Hi Hokulele,
As you know I received this gift because my thoughts/prayers were pleasing in God’s sight.
Now that I know that God gives gifts to his servants because of their prayers, I’ll do my best to be obedient to the utmost so that he’ll give me even more gifts.
I gave up the million dollar challenge simply because it’s just not enough.

 

[six7s]

Hi Ethnikos,

If you have come to this critical thinking forum to think, critically, then I can sincerely recommend that you watch the video.

If bandwidth is an issue, try loading whywontgodhealamputees.com/video8.htm in a browser with Flash and Scripts disabled by default (e.g. Firefox - free from www.mozilla.com - with the the NoScript add-on - free from addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/search?q=noscript - and then you can read a transcript of the video, without loading the video



If you are scared that your God will get angry and smite you for doubting him, then I suggest you reconsider how firmly you believe what you wrote earlier:

So, it was not a sadistic God who got me in trouble

It seems to me that you (and countless others too, this thought ain't aimed at attacking you, honest ) have no problem accepting a rational explanation (i.e. it was your own stupidity) when crediting God as the cause would/could seem smite-worthy

However, I suspect that you have no problem dispensing with the rational world and crediting a god who is (irrationally) beyond all/any perception other than via faith...


If you're still reading, then maybe you are here to think critically. If so, try thinking about this:

can you imagine anything more perfectly (ridiculously) circular than claims for a god whose existence can only be tested on pain of death?
​

Have fun!

 

[Hokulele]

Hi Hokulele,
As you know I received this gift because my thoughts/prayers were pleasing in God’s sight.
Now that I know that God gives gifts to his servants because of their prayers, I’ll do my best to be obedient to the utmost so that he’ll give me even more gifts.

So god has to resort to bribery.

Sad.

I gave up the million dollar challenge simply because it’s just not enough.

Suuuuuure it wasn't.

 

[six7s]

I gave up the million dollar challenge simply because it’s just not enough.

What would be enough to persuade you to let the whole world know - in no uncertain terms - that your 'gifts' (and, therefore, your god) really are true?

 

[Ali]

So god has to resort to bribery.

Sad.


Suuuuuure it wasn't.

Having strength like Samson's: then the whole earth is yours!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is just one of many examples where the million dollar challenge just falls pitifully short.

 

[Hokulele]

Having strength like Samson's: then the whole earth is yours!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Of course, just like the efficacy of prayer, you simply fail to prove this.

This is just one of many examples where the million dollar challenge just falls pitifully short.

Or this.

 

[Ryan O'Dine]

In other words, as the evidence mounts that prayer has no effect other than placebo when the prayee knows prayer is occurring, change the definition of what prayer is lest one might have to confront the fact prayer is as effective as carrying a rabbit's foot.

I don't think I'm changing the definition of prayer. Historically, prayer and meditation have often been synonymous. Many prayers, including those in Christianity, focus on the ineffable qualities of God. God doesn't need to be told He's ineffable. The prayer is to get the one praying closer to understanding Him.

Prayer is no more and no less than a million other rituals humans have performed over the years to affect the natural Universe. We discovered through careful observation that these rituals have no effect other than a bit of placebo. Prayers do not make you a better person. They don't help you focus your chi. There is no god answering any prayers and rabbits' feet do not work either.

I agree mostly. My point is that many types of prayer are far more about affecting oneself than the rest of the Universe.

And I disagree if you believe prayers can't make you a better person. Someone with anger management issues who learns to pray at the critical moment could, at least conceivably, be helped. A trivial example, but it gets to my point of prayer not being only about asking for goodies.

 

[Ladewig]

One day I was climbing over a big rock-pile when right in front of me a rattlesnake rose up from under the rock I was on and blocked my path. I looked behind me and another one came up. Then ones on each side of me came up.

Why didn't you simply command the rattlesnakes to fly up and land someplace else. Jesus, himself, clearly states that people with faith can do that.

Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.

You didn't have to cast them into the sea; but surely you could have prayed them into a different location.


. . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Why are you so special? Why doesn't god save Christian children who die of leukemia, Spinal Muscular Atrophy, cancer and all sorts of infections and accidents. Why did god care so much about you and not about these other children?

Bear in mind that these children don't typically just die. They suffer..

Quoted for relevance.

 

[Ladewig]

Not to belabor the snake anecdote, but why didn't you have faith in Mark 16:17-18

17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

You could have called out Jesus's name, picked up the snake, and put it down off the path.

 

[quarky]

Prayer is ill-defined in this argument.

I suspect that a lot of prayer is not about asking for anything; its about distracting the mind set from fear and sorrow. A state of fear can be quite debilitating.

One might also have a 'default' song for such occasions, with similar positive effects.
Its not about god, its about the neutral mind state.

(ironic that I should be defending prayer. I hate the type wherein someone asks god to make me more like them)