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The powerlessness of prayer

TheAnachronism

Critical Thinker
TheAnachronism
Joined
Jul 16, 2007
Messages
439
There have been many posts on the JREF forums which, in no uncertain terms, discuss the uselessness of prayer in conjunction with the scientific method; ie prayer has been shown not to affect the outcome of a situation. Obviously, this observation could be highly variable depending on who is observing, and the argument probably wouldn't convince those who already believe that prayer has some effect.

Searching through the forum, I don't know if a thread has been specifically created to debunk the Judeo-Christian tradition of prayer in theological terms. If so, please excuse this attempt.

I am not a theologian by any means. In fact, I'm blithely unaware of most things religious, but hopefully this thread will provoke some discussion, and hopefully my thoughts are not too off base. My argument looks something like this:

1) God does not change his mind.

“God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should change His mind. Does He speak and then not act? Does He promise and not fulfill?” Numbers 23:19

“I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.” Malachi 3:6

“Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.” James 1:17

2) Prayer goes against the traditional sentiment expressed in The Lord's Prayer, "Thy will be done..."

I realize that prayer is deeply individual, but it seems to me that prayers can usually be broken up in to two groups. The first is what I call "proactive prayer," and would include something like "please let grandma get well." The second I call "Thanksgiving prayer," and would be something like "Thank you, Lord, for all that I have."

My previous arguments are directed towards proactive prayer, which seems to me to be very common. If my arguments are not off-base, it seems to me that prayer should be viewed, even by Christians, as not only powerless and useless but also, on account of point 2, somewhat heretic.

Okay, agree or disagree. Like I said, I have no background in theology, and for all I know this could already be some huge debate raging in that field. At any rate, I hope that people can find some more good points for/against prayer.
 
There are far more knowledgeable and intelligent people here than myself, but I recall when I read the christian bible years ago that there was a portion where Jesus was explaining that men who pray in public and in private get their great rewards in heaven but the man who prays in his closet (thus privately and away from the eyes of others) has greater rewards in store. This, to me, shows that Jesus was FOR prayer. But for all I know he could have meant "worship," rather than "prayer" as we define it.

Nice thread, I think. I will follow with interest!
 
Is it still proactive if the subject is oneself? As in "Lord, please heal me and make me well again," or "Please, Lord, change my spouse's heart so he stops cheating on me and hitting me?"
 
I know that God knows if I'm going to Heaven or Hell. Therefore there's no point in me doing anything, so I might as well slack off. But slacking off gets me into Hell. So I can't slack off.

Therefore God knows I'm not gonna slack off, and will thus get into Heaven. Therefore I choose to slack off.

Repeat ad nauseum.
 
There is the term petitive prayer. Might be better than proactive.

But I think that working petitive prayer would indeed be somewhat ... absurd. Being successful in changing God's mind is only one thing. Even only the 'need' to alert God to some problem or other seems odd.

But it gets grossly absurd when the impression is evoked that the harder people pray, or that the more people participate in a group prayer, the better it should work. *Slaps forehead*
 
Minarvia said:
There are far more knowledgeable and intelligent people here than myself, but I recall when I read the christian bible years ago that there was a portion where Jesus was explaining that men who pray in public and in private get their great rewards in heaven but the man who prays in his closet (thus privately and away from the eyes of others) has greater rewards in store. This, to me, shows that Jesus was FOR prayer. But for all I know he could have meant "worship," rather than "prayer" as we define it.

Nice thread, I think. I will follow with interest!
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Great response.

I wonder if the term "prayer" meant something different biblically than it does in modern times. Another thought is that perhaps the Ancient Greek word conveys a meaning different that the word prayer does in English and other modern languages.
 
My grandmother's the classical caricature of a truly devoted christian old person. Every time we see her, she reminds me of her praying for me and my family. "Every night I fall asleep by praying for all my relatives and friends and my congregation and some special people I've been assigned to pray for. I go name by name and ask God to...." You know, on and on. Every time, same routine.

She's also very concerned (actually, quite frantic) on knowing the whereabouts of each person she's praying for. She even demands to know of the shortest trip out of town. When asked why, she tells that she has to know where people are, so that when she prays for them, she can aim the prayer at the right place. That God works that way.

Of course it's impossible (and not very sensible) to give her notification of every small trip here and there. She knows this, and when asked about what she does when she doesn't know the location of her prayer's subject, she answers: "Oh, I have faith in God, that He knows the whereabouts of every single person, so all I have to do is to pray."

Okay, she's an old woman and contradicting herself is something I can stand. But it goes to show something of the mindset of her kinds of praying people. Everything can be twisted and turned to serve their beliefs.

Not much good on debunking the effectiveness of prayer, but something on the subject anyway..
 
For many people, prayer is only marginally about asking for goodies. It's more about changing oneself -- focusing one's mind on the important things and continuously developing one's relationship with God.

In that sense, it can have positive, or at least intended effects. Or so I'm given to believe.
 
TheAnachronism said:
Great response.

I wonder if the term "prayer" meant something different biblically than it does in modern times. Another thought is that perhaps the Ancient Greek word conveys a meaning different that the word prayer does in English and other modern languages.
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Exactly! I am finding out in these forums that a definition is crucial to an understanding of the topic and the discussing of it.
As for what Jesus meant by prayer, I was also recalling that in Mass so many "prayers" are prewritten and full of praise. So could that be more worship than requests?
 
Praying seems to offer refuge to the praying person. The mind is occupied, and possibly removed from worry. Worrying is sort of like an anti-prayer; picturing horrible scenarios in one's mind. That can be a bummer, whether or not it has any psychic effect on the outcome of a situation. Prayer is a prophalactic against this.

Masturbation is prayer-like as well...if one has an image of a partner in one's mind at the time. Its less lonely.
 
Back when I used to hike around the mountains all the time, I would be constantly praying as I was stepping over rocks and fallen trees, not to be bitten by a rattlesnake.
I have had a lot prayers answered in different, kind of strange ways. I have had people just come up to me and give me information about something I was asking God about, for no apparent reason, other than they said God told them to tell me something.
 
I asked the Flying Spaghetti Monster not to let an asteroid smash my house, and the house is fine. That proves both the existence of the great FSM and the fact that prayer works. :bwall

The concept that you constantly have to beg your god to spare you from being injured by something he created is ridiculous.
 
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There are a lot of things to be protected from, like fires, wind, waves, cold, and other people. One case where I was saved was from falling off a thousand foot cliff, off a mountain and down to the desert gorge, below.
I do not see how it is ridiculous, unless you mean that you have to go through the act of praying, before you can get saved. Most of the times I was saved was when I did not have the time or presence of mind to pray, or was not fully aware of my danger.
 
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Ethnikos said:
Most of the times I was saved was when I did not have the time or presence of mind to pray, or was not fully aware of my danger.
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I wonder why you think/feel its appropriate to use the term 'saved'

Please, do explain
 
six7s said:
I wonder why you think/feel its appropriate to use the term 'saved'
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I mean someone coming along and helping you, for no apparet reason.
I started out with the cliff story, so I could go further on that one.
When I was a kid, I was with a group and we were above the top of the tram terminal above Pam Springs. You can go to overlook spots that go straight down. Being a foolish adventurous kid, I started climbing around. I ended up being stuck and hanging from a tree branch over the abyss.
A kid was there, all of a sudden, that I noticed when he asked me if I needed help. He helped me back up and he walked off. I assumed he was from the group but I never saw him again. Very strange.
I had a lot of things happen like that to me because I have a way of getting into un-safe situations. So, it is a testament of my own stupidity, or something.
palmspringstram.jpg
 
OK... but that doesn't explain your use of the term 'saved' (in contrast with, for example, the term 'rescued')

I'd be reluctant to recount such an anecdote unless I thought doing so would have some relevance to the thread title: ' The powerlessness of prayer'

:confused:
 
six7s said:
OK... but that doesn't explain your use of the term 'saved' (in contrast with, for example, the term 'rescued')
I'd be reluctant to recount such an anecdote unless I thought doing so would have some relevance to the thread title: ' The powerlessness of prayer'
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It was being saved, meaning it saved my life. I think I would not be alive right now if I did not get help.
How this fits the thread is that God does things to help people and I am convinced that it was God who sent an angel in this situation. It was a very strange experience, that there was someone there, that looked like another kid, who seemed very mature and calm and knew exactly what to do to get me out of a bad situation.
 
If prayer does nothing else, at least (for some) it gives them something to do - something to shift their attention from their dismal environments and the things they can not influence or control. Maybe it also inspires just enough hope to keep some others from giving up on everything - even life itself - when they would otherwise have no hope at all. Maybe it even gives them just enough courage to try the impossible one last time, or to face death alone with some shred of comfort and dignity.

Prayer may or may not be an effective "Wish Spell", but for some, it at least helps them feel less miserable, if only for a little while.
 
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