Heiwa's Pizza Box Experiment

[Dave Rogers]

Don't look just at the forces - look at their (the forces') displacements = energy consumed.

Okay. We've got mgh, the gravitational potential energy released by the falling block of mass m while falling through distance h. We've also got Fh, the energy consumed by the friction forces as the block falls through the same distance h. Since, according to you, F<mg, then Fh<mgh, and the net energy consumed (Fh-mgh) is negative, over any distance h; in other words, energy is released. In other other words, the collapse does not arrest at any point. In other other other words, you don't change an inequality by multiplying both sides by the same constant.

You have not studied real physics, have you?

Not in your universe, evidently.

Dave

 

[TheDaver]

Fine, Heiwa. You know what? Go jump off a bridge. According to your physics, you won’t fall to your death – air resistance will slow you to a stop.

 

[nicepants]

The upward, reaction forces - friction, further impacts against other sub-bodies, deformations at contacs of bodies involved, etc., against the dropping mass/body evidently slow it down, deform it, destroy it (plenty energy absorbed) ... and stop it.

I don't think you understand.

If the upward forces are less than mg...the object will not be stopped. Its downward velocity will continue to increase until the sum of the upward forces is greater than mg.

 

[Heiwa]

I don't think you understand.

If the upward forces are less than mg...the object will not be stopped. Its downward velocity will continue to increase until the sum of the upward forces is greater than mg.

But the upwards forces are equal to mg ... after a while = arrest. Sorry you do not understand. But it is shown in the Pizza Box Tower experiment.

Thanks for starting this thread.

PS. mg is just a static weight/gravity force when in contact with anything (no velocity). m's velocity (m is then logically moving) is easy to change - just apply any force; friction, contact. The velocity will change ... immediately. If the velocity of m is downwards and the forces are upwards, the velocity is reduced. Energy absorbtion takes care of it. No need for the force to be greater than mg for that! And where would such force (100% mg) come from? It is only established after arrest; friction/resistance force is then 100% mg. You could say (at arrest) that the coefficient of friction is then 1. Before it was less. The mass was still slipping between the broken parts.

Only Bazant and NIST suggest that the velocity of m will increase after mutliple contacts with anything it crushes down = NWO physics. But as shown in the Pizza Box Tower experiment it is not so.

PPS. It seems I am repeating myself. Are all those JREF posters so thick that they do not understand that when a rubber ball hits ground it bounces? It does not punch a hole in the ground to the centre of earth ... as it should according NIST and Bazant.

 

[Panoply_Prefect]

Where can I read this rebuttal?

Here (pdf) on page 13 ("Märkligt är att Björkman avslöjar sin okunskap om vågkrafter när han skriver”vågorna lyfter enbart fartyget i höjdled”.")

 

[Heiwa]

Okay. We've got mgh, the gravitational potential energy released by the falling block of mass m while falling through distance h. We've also got Fh, the energy consumed by the friction forces as the block falls through the same distance h. Since, according to you, F<mg, then Fh<mgh, and the net energy consumed (Fh-mgh) is negative, over any distance h; in other words, energy is released. In other other words, the collapse does not arrest at any point. In other other other words, you don't change an inequality by multiplying both sides by the same constant.

Dave

You forgot all the energy absorbed crushing structural parts, while friction was at work. If there was no friction, no parts would be crushed. The dropping mass would just slip by = zero friction = no destruction and ??? but how does the dropping mass get through the structure below?? This is what NIST and Bazant want you to believe in the NWO. The dropping mass crushes down everything without assistance of friction. Everything just crushes ... like magic. The NWO structural shock wave! At increasing velocity. No friction! My, my - bad science fiction. Only stupid 10 years old boys might believe that.

OTOH - it is official policy and US it at war! If you do not believe that you commit treason! You are a traitor! So I understand. But why don't you simply shut up?

 

[Lennart Hyland]

Here (pdf) on page 13 ("Märkligt är att Björkman avslöjar sin okunskap om vågkrafter när han skriver”vågorna lyfter enbart fartyget i höjdled”.")

Thank you very much!

 

[Heiwa]

Here (pdf) on page 13 ("Märkligt är att Björkman avslöjar sin okunskap om vågkrafter när han skriver”vågorna lyfter enbart fartyget i höjdled”.")

So what do you think about http://heiwaco.tripod.com/offres_emplois.htm ? Okunskap?

 

[X]

Are you familiar with a term called "doublethink", Heiwa?

It is the act of simultaneously accepting as correct two mutually contradictory beliefs.
Wikipedia Article


For example, the following two quotes represent a textbook example of doublethink:

In that case, if an opposing force F1 = 1 N is applied to the mass 1 kg after one second, when it has velocity 1 m/s due to force F = 1 N (mass started at zero velocity), the two forces added together becomes 0 = no force is acting on the mass, which continues at 1 m/s. Quite basic.

But the upwards forces are equal to mg ... after a while = arrest. Sorry you do not understand.

Perhaps you'd care to enlighten us as to why the mass with no net force (in reply to this post) in your first quote continues to move at a constant velocity, whereas the mass with no net force (mg = upward forces) in the second quote undergoes acceleration (i.e. change in velocity)?

 

[Heiwa]

Fine, Heiwa. You know what? Go jump off a bridge. According to your physics, you won’t fall to your death – air resistance will slow you to a stop.

No problem me diving/jumping from 10 metres! It is quite fun. Just do not look down.

 

[Heiwa]

Are you familiar with a term called "doublethink", Heiwa?

It is the act of simultaneously accepting as correct two mutually contradictory beliefs.
Wikipedia Article


For example, the following two quotes represent a textbook example of doublethink:

​

Perhaps you'd care to enlighten us as to why the mass with no net force (in reply to this post) in your first quote continues to move at a constant velocity, whereas the mass with no net force (mg = upward forces) in the second quote undergoes acceleration (i.e. change in velocity)?

Easy - in the first case you suggest there is no friction involved so the mass(es) just move along at constant velocity when the forces are removed (it must be somewhere in outer space where g = 0); in the second case friction and gravity is a work decelarating the object(s) until arrest and equilibrium is reached.

Pls note that the Pizza Box Tower is not in outer space.

 

[X]

Easy - in the first case you suggest there is no friction involved so the mass(es) just move along at constant velocity when the forces are removed (it must be somewhere in outer space where g = 0); in the second case friction and gravity is a work decelarating the object(s) until arrest and equilibrium is reached.

Pls note that the Pizza Box Tower is not in outer space.

You said "the upwards forces are equal to mg". Your words.

That would be an inclusive statement. All the upward forces. Which would include friction.

Are you now changing your mind, and agreeing the the sum of the upward forces (F₁) must be greater than the sum of the downward forces (M₁g) for the upper section to decelerate?

If so, you admit Dave Rogers, myself, and all the others who chimed in were correct and that you were wrong when you said:

Sorry, F₁ cannot be bigger than M₁g, because then the latter would fly up into the sky.

 

[TheDaver]

But the upwards forces are equal to mg ... after a while = arrest.

Wrong.

When forces sum up to zero, acceleration is zero. Velocity will be constant but not necessarily zero.

 

[HyJinX]

I think there's one key calculation that takes precedence with Heiwa...one that cannot be countered with rationality. And that is:

Political beliefs > Laws of Physics

He proved this in post #506 and will apparently defend that position regardless of how wrong he is. Sad...but not uncommon with those who truly believe that the evil gubmint is...well...evil.

 

[phunk]

PPS. It seems I am repeating myself. Are all those JREF posters so thick that they do not understand that when a rubber ball hits ground it bounces? It does not punch a hole in the ground to the centre of earth ... as it should according NIST and Bazant.

Everyone understands that, what you don't understand is WHY it doesn't punch a hole in the ground, and what is different about the buildings vs the rubber ball.

The rubber ball exerts a force GREATER THAN mg when it bounces. The upper part of the building exerts a force GREATER THAN mg when it impacts the lower part. And it doesn't matter if it's in 1 piece or 10000, each individual collision will exert a force much greater than mg, and if it isn't a collision with a part that can withstand that force, it's going to keep going, only now with more mass and more room to accelerate. And if a part is slowed, the parts above it will then catch up and add more force to the equation.

The only way the collapse could be arrested is if it is as rigid a structure as bazant & co modeled. Breaking apart as you keep insisting only makes the problem WORSE, as it drops the loads off the columns and onto the floors that can't even remotely support it, then the floors fail, then the columns are unsupported and fail too.

 

[X]

Wrong.

When forces sum up to zero, acceleration is zero. Velocity will be constant but not necessarily zero.

Heiwa is aware of that.

 

[nicepants]

Velocity != Acceleration

But the upwards forces are equal to mg ... after a while = arrest.

You are wrong. The object can only be stopped if the upwards forces are GREATER than mg long enough to compensate for any acceleration which occurred prior to the forces being equal.

Refer back to the object on frictionless surface example. If you apply your 1N force (we'll call that mg), the object begins accelerating away from you...if after 1 second, someone else applies an equal 1N force (we'll call that uf [upward force]) to the other side, the object is no longer accelerating, the net force is zero, but it is still moving.

If the velocity of m is downwards and the forces are upwards, the velocity is reduced. Energy absorbtion takes care of it. No need for the force to be greater than mg for that!

The velocity is not reduced unless upward force (friction/resistance/etc) is greater than mg.

 

[rwguinn]

You are wrong. The object can only be stopped if the upwards forces are GREATER than mg long enough to compensate for any acceleration which occurred prior to the forces being equal.

Refer back to the object on frictionless surface example. If you apply your 1N force (we'll call that mg), the object begins accelerating away from you...if after 1 second, someone else applies an equal 1N force (we'll call that uf [upward force]) to the other side, the object is no longer accelerating, the net force is zero, but it is still moving.



The velocity is not reduced unless upward force (friction/resistance/etc) is greater than mg.

Erm..no.
If you cease applying your 1N force, the body will remain in motion at whatever velocity it was at when you quit pushing. If somebody then applies an opposite direction 1N force (for the same length of time you applied yours (important!)) it will slow down and stop. If the force is still being applied, it will accelerate in the direction of the applied force.
If they apply 2 N for 1/2 the time, it will stop quicker.
If you are still applying your 1N force at the time a 1 N force is applied to the opposite side, the body will then maintain the velocity it reached before the 2nd force application.
If the opposing force is 2N, and applied long enough, the object will slow, stop, and reverse course, accelerating in the new direction just as though there were a single 1N force being applied!

 

[X]

Erm..no.
If you cease applying your 1N force, the body will remain in motion at whatever velocity it was at when you quit pushing. If somebody then applies an opposite direction 1N force (for the same length of time you applied yours (important!)) it will slow down and stop. If the force is still being applied, it will accelerate in the direction of the applied force.
If they apply 2 N for 1/2 the time, it will stop quicker.
If you are still applying your 1N force at the time a 1 N force is applied to the opposite side, the body will then maintain the velocity it reached before the 2nd force application.
If the opposing force is 2N, and applied long enough, the object will slow, stop, and reverse course, accelerating in the new direction just as though there were a single 1N force being applied!

To clarify: The bolded section in the quote above is the one in my thought experiment for Heiwa, and the case to which I believe Nicepants is referring.

 

[ElMondoHummus]

Thank you. Pls report any errors on the Heiwa Co web site http://heiwaco.tripod.com and I will look into them. It seems there are none, but have a try.

Please report any errors on the website?? You sure you want the entire contents of 3 or 4 threads from this forum sent there?

Gimme a break. You can read the criticisms here in this forum just as easily as you could if they were copied there. Trying to feign accomodation through use of administrivia is a dodge. The mistakes exist regardless of where the rebuttals are posted.