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Gently Warning Friends about Kevin Trudeau

streetsmart1980

New Blood
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Dec 16, 2007
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I have a friend who keeps trying to tell me about Kevin Trudeau's Natural Cures book. He gets very angry that I don't share his love and appreciation for Kevin Trudeau.

My friend is an interesting character in and of himself. This question is not so much about how I can convince my friend that Kevin Trudeau is a scammer and his book a lie, but rather something else. I want to know what would be the best way to try to gently reason with my friend. This is probably more of a psychology question than a medical/scientific analysis of the Natural Cures book.

Here are some things I have tried.

I have told my friend I am not interested in the book. I have asked my friend why he believes in Trudeau and the book and he claims he has experienced absolutely certain personal success with the cures. I can't argue with that. My friend is absolutely convinced of his own subjective experiences. He doesn't care what the news says, what scientists say, what court documents say or what doctors say. He knows it in his heart and that is it.

I know this is scary, but my friend is a fun guy to hang out with. I just fear that he might be unteachable and unreachable in his old age. Is he beyond help? Can one even reason with such a person? I didn't want to get into it with him, but he is angry that I am 'unwilling to accept the truth'!

We ended up talking about the subject for quite a while. I didn't rip into him or anything. I just kept telling him that he should discuss the book with people who will show interest in it. I was trying to impart a life lesson to him, saying essentially that he shouldn't share things with people who don't appreciate the things he treasures. I don't appreciate Kevin Trudeaus Natural cures, therefore he shouldn't talk to me about it. I will just end up raining on his parade.

As the night went on he said that he would "look at both sides" and would "read the internet articles against Trudeau's natural cures' and 'watch the John Stossel Video', but of course he is convinced those are all corporate conspiracies. He begged me to also consider "both sides". I said I only know of one side and that is "science" and not just some random guy saying the opposite of thousands of years of research. You can imagine my friend becoming more angry.

The final realization I came to was this. There must be a compelling story / truth in the book called Natural Cures. I validated my friends discovery of those truths. That calmed him down. In the end I agreed to read the book or at least to skim it. I think this will give me more credibility in talking with my friend. See, because science and reality don't reach him. Apparently only personal relationships do. (Maybe that's kind of how children are)

It is so strange, because he does not have any sort of compass to determine what is truth vs self deception. He does trust me, but he also "really trusts his inner feelings and intuitions", although they can change every few weeks. He has zero perspective unless I remind him of things.

I know this is getting complex, but my friend is like a specimen from another planet. That is part of the intrigue.

Ok, so while we were talking I got to one point I thought was meaningful. I asked him: "How does the sun rise and fall?" My hope was to have him recount the true scientific fact that the earth rotates around the sun (and spins around on its axis). He admitted that the suns apparent rising and falling has to do with the earths movement. I kind of got him to admit that what he knows/believes about the sun is different than what he personally sees / feels / and or can personally verify (without science).

Anyway it seemed like he kind of got it. He understood that there are things in reality that are very different from the way they seem or feel to us. And he kind of got the fact that even he believes certain 'scientific facts' although they contradict what he sees. I didn't have a chance to ask him why he believes the scientists in some cases and not in others. My ultimate goal is to show him that scientists and science are a reliable source compared to Infomercial Book Sellers.

I think the next step I should take is to do some sort of simple experiment with him. The same way you would do it with a child. Can you guys / gals think of any small experiment I could do with him to show him that what he sees and believes can be wrong sometimes. Maybe the experiment can show him that there are 'ways' to verify reality independently of our feelings and subjective thoughts. Any suggestions?

I am also up for any sort of advice. Like I said, this is more of a psychology experiment for me. I can never predict what will work with my friend.
 
I would research a handful of specific claims in Trudeau's book that can be debunked with good scientific evidence. Make sure you know the names and backgrounds of the scientists who did the studies that contradict, and some details on the studies themselves (how big, how long, where they were done).

Then bring them up the next time.

What about "___insert wacky claim here____"? Where do you think Kevin Trudeau got that? What was his basis for recommending that? Now, you know Trudeau has no medical qualifications or training, do you trust his judgment on this?

Let him answer.

Then bring up your details. You know it was odd, but the book doesn't mention that this exact cure was studied with 200 patients in Switzerland in 2003. (fill in actual details) Talk about the scientists who did the study and what their training was. Then tell him the results.

And repeat for however many other examples you can find. If you can show him that specific things in Trudeaus book have been scientifically debunked, you can undermine his faith in the rest of the book.
 
Thanks for the reply krelnik.

I knew I was onto something when I posted my dilemma. When I initially talked to my friend about the Natural Cures last night I thought about what you said here in the post. I gently tried to see if I could try your approach, but I came to the conclusion that this path was too agressive. Smart, but not quite what I needed.

Thank you however for laying it out so clearly and succinctly. Once I have won more of my friends trust and helped him develop more of an appreciation for science through personal experience, then I will try your approach. It is however too advanced as of yet.

I must say that you did spark some major insights for me. I wrote you a long response, which I will not post. But by journaling out my response to you I think I came to some wonderful conclusions.

My friend is not convinced by the 'facts of the book' so much, but rather by the psychology of it. That is the key. I now have thought about the psychology of the book and I think I now know what is so appealing to him. I also know my friends psychology very well and the two completely match up.
 
I wish I could reach my Dad about this stuff, but really, what can you say to someone who finds the idea that doctors know coral calcium cures cancer but keep it a secret because they can make more money from expensive cancer treatments plausible?
 
Like I mentioned in the other thread about this, his "natural cures" are more or less just old fashioned home remedies with a new shine on them. Relatively harmless, except to the suckers who paid the price of his book to find this out.

Dee
 
One thing to remember about Trudeau is that the "cures" are only half of the story, the other part is the grand conspiracy to make us all sick. Perhaps poking a few holes in the ability of conspiracies of that magnitude to exist would shake the foundations of your friends faith.
 
I find that self humiliation is the easiest way to get someone to listen to you. Instead of telling them that they are wrong, tell them about a time in your life when you were where they are sitting, and how you came to the realization that you were wrong.

I talked to my sister about ghosts once, and she swore that her house was haunted. She saw ghosts before, and wanted me to explain it. Well, of course I couldn't, but I got the sense that she was just relaying third person anectdotes on me. Maybe her friend said that she saw a ghost, for whatever reason. I can think of many reasons to say things like that, from being included in a conversation, to appearing interesting.

Anyways, I told her about a time when someone told me a story, and before I knew it, I was telling someone else, as if it happened to me. I didn't realize I was doing it, and could have sworn it happened to me, until that person told me that he was the one that told me that story. It was so real in my mind that I believed it happened to me.

The point is, she was not confrontational by me telling her that I was wrong, and she was able to see similarities in both our stories. She came away with the knowledge that you can't believe people even when they think they are telling the truth, because they themselves could be mistaken.
 
Sometimes these kinds of arguments devolve into the butting of heads of the protagonists for personal reasons that have little, if anything, to do with the verbalized context. It's always worthwhile to step back and reexamine one's own rationale for pressing one's case; the real motives aren't always obvious.


M.
 
There are parts of this world that are dirt poor and rich in diseases. Places where "big pharma" and corporate interests have no control whatsoever. Trudeau has been peddling his wares for years and has enough money to go to these places, set up shop, hire some private security, and become the hero of these nations. He could take these cures and prove he is right all over the world and force this issue.

Yet what he does is sell books. Where there is the best medical care in the world and all of the money, Trudeau is there. Where they have little to no medical care and no money, Trudeau is not to be found. If you could cure AIDS on the cheap, as he claims, and you couldn't do it in America because "big pharma" is blocking you, why wouldn't you go to Africa where AIDS is decimating the population and cure all of them? He could start in Egypt and work his way down. He would have no trouble with the FDA, FCC and even the IRS over there. They might even make him king. So why is he here selling books and not somewhere else doing what he claims?

Those would be the questions I would ask of someone supporting Trudeau. Essentially, where is his basic humanity in not taking these free cures to the people who need it the most.
 
streetsmart1980 said:
I think the next step I should take is to do some sort of simple experiment with him. The same way you would do it with a child. Can you guys / gals think of any small experiment I could do with him to show him that what he sees and believes can be wrong sometimes. Maybe the experiment can show him that there are 'ways' to verify reality independently of our feelings and subjective thoughts. Any suggestions?
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You could always use the straw in a glass of water experiment. You know the one where the straw seems to be split in two pieces with the split at the waterline. It's a perfect example that what appears to be true is not the same as what is true. It takes objective knowledge about refraction and that the straw is not split to understand what is being witnessed.
 
Some older folks (and I don't except myself) are prone to this sort of persuasion, and Gary Trudeau (and marketing people) are not unaware of it. Brought up in rural areas, they are basically conservative and skeptical, but unfortunately are also somewhat ignorant of science; if it was taught in the school they attended, it has long been forgotten in the hurly-burly of making a living. My own father (who still lives in Oklahoma, in his 90's) is this way - he's a pragmatist to the bone. He's a Democrat thanks to his 35 years as a union man, but every habit he has reeks of conservative motivation. Thankfully, he soured on religion as a teenager and therefore isn't religious now, but that's just a (for me, blessed) accident.

Such people are stolid in their paths. Once they latch onto an idea, it takes great force to change their course. Normally an admirable trait, modern marketing has found ways to pierce the armour and make it work for them. There is likely a lot of anecdotal truth in what GT says in his book, and quite a lot of real truth, if rather incomplete and banal. Aspirin relieves pain, and is, at base, a natural derivation of willow bark. This fact and other similar facts can be used to convince people that natural ways are best, regardless of the fact that science was/is involved in every step of the extraction, synthesis and production of the modern article, and the reason it is so cheap and that willows still grow unmolested. But that's a harder, more abstract, less "natural" sell.

Of course, I'm not saying anything new; this reasoning (at least the marketing stuff, if not the rural conservatism angle) is basic to understanding medical quackery.
 
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Tell him that the book refers readers to the website for more information and it costs to join. Trudeau makes money any way the FCC can't bust him (again) for.
 
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Tell them about Trudeau's criminal past. That should clue in anybody that he is a con artist.
 
TheDeeMan said:
Like I mentioned in the other thread about this, his "natural cures" are more or less just old fashioned home remedies with a new shine on them. Relatively harmless, except to the suckers who paid the price of his book to find this out.

Dee
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BS. He is dangerous becuase people will not get real medical help because they buy into Trudeau's "Modern Medicine Is Out To Get You" crap and will rely on Trudeau's worthless remedies instead. If that is harmless I would like to see what your defination of harmful is.
 
Careyp74 said:
I find that self humiliation is the easiest way to get someone to listen to you. Instead of telling them that they are wrong, tell them about a time in your life when you were where they are sitting, and how you came to the realization that you were wrong.
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That's an approach that I like. If you push too hard on the "you're wrong and here's why" angle, you come across as if you think they're stupid. To even consider that you might be right might make them think they're stupid, or at least a bit foolish. That's a hard pill to swallow. If you play up the yeah-it's-easy-to-fool-yourself angle, and admit to some foolishness of your own, the whole thing becomes less threatening. Or so I would think. I have only a handful of experiences to go by.

shadron said:
Aspirin relieves pain, and is, at base, a natural derivation of willow bark. This fact and other similar facts can be used to convince people that natural ways are best, regardless of the fact that science was/is involved in every step of the extraction, synthesis and production of the modern article, and the reason it is so cheap and that willows still grow unmolested. But that's a harder, more abstract, less "natural" sell.
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My version of that argument is this: When The Medical Establishmenttm figured out that willowbark really did relieve pain, they didn't cover it up; they studied it. They identified the active chemical, figured out a way to mass-produce it in its pure form, and ta-daa, we've got Aspirin. The claim that "they" don't want you to know about natural cures because "they" won't be able to profit if you do doesn't hold up against the example of Aspirin. It's a very popular, widely-used drug, and it wouldn't exist at all if Big Pharmatm had conspired to hide the fact that willowbark is effective in pain management.
 
dudalb said:
He is dangerous becuase people will not get real medical help because they buy into Trudeau's "Modern Medicine Is Out To Get You" crap
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This is a valid point. Trudeau pushes the idea that there's some sort of evil establishment pulling the strings of all of modern medicine. Is this aspect of Trudeau's narrative part of what appeals to your friend about his writings? If so, that issue might be the first and most important thing to worry about.
 
Leftus

I like what you said about taking the "Natural Cures" to the poorest part of the world and solving the AIDS crisis etc. I think that is a compelling point, and if I get a chance I will gently test that one out on my friend.


Edges

Thanks for the advice of showing my friend a glass of water with a straw in it. I found a picture of it on the internet and I saw immediately what you were getting at. I will sit down with him and talk about it and then have him analyze the results. I am convinced that once he does some of these experiments himself and processes them with his own mind he will have a better understanding of science. I am going to have to think out exactly how I want to use the experiment to reason with him. That's going to be a little challenge.

Dudalb

I thought about mentioning Trudeaus criminal past, but that didn't really work. My friend has been to jail himself and he knows many people who have been wrongfully imprisoned and falsely accused etc. The fact that Trudeau has had problems with the law, merely shows that he is a brave man who is willing to stand up to a corrupt system. That is how my friend sees it. I was at a loss when it came to undermining Trudeaus credibility because of his criminal record.
 
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