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Heiwa's Pizza Box Experiment

it's funny how in one sentence he can acknowledge that the upper block is not one rigid mass, but in the next sentence refer to it as being just that.

But the part that made me laugh the most is his talk about how the upper block would be sliced into 1000 part and that because they are then suddenly 1000s of part (as if theyw eren't before) they can't do any damage. I seriously don't know how this guy can go around pretending to be an engineer. If you're going to pretend to be an engineer, shouldn't one learn some basic engineering principles?
 



Heiwa: I'm going to make this as straightforward as I can.

Dave Rogers made the following post:
You've demonstrated that A*S > M1g, which was never in doubt. You've made no attempt to determine F1, and you've asserted that it's equal to M1g. If that were the case, the falling block would fall all the way to the ground at constant speed, therefore the collapse wouldn't arrest. Clearly you have no idea what the magnitude of the friction and entanglement force is, so you have no grounds for claiming it would necessarily arrest the collapse.



You replied, telling him he was wrong, and that if F1 was greater then mg, the upper section would fly away.
Sorry, F1 cannot be bigger than M1g, because then the latter would fly up into the sky.


I have shown you twice now that you are wrong in this claim.

If F1 is equal to mg, as you claim it should be, then the upper section will continue to descend as a constant velocity.

In order for the upper section to decelerate at all, F1 must be greater then mg.




As I have said, until you understand this basic error, I am not going to read the rest of your case.
Why should I waste the time doing so, when you cannot even understand elementary-school level physics?


You are wrong, Dave Rogers was right. Admit your error, and correct your work.


ETA: Oh, and the building does not act like a giant spring, throwing the upper section into the air. That's preposterous.
 
Heiwa: I'm going to make this as straightforward as I can.

ETA: Oh, and the building does not act like a giant spring, throwing the upper section into the air. That's preposterous.

If a solid rubber ball bounces on solid ground (not preposterous), why would not a solid, rigid upper block/section do the same when contacting/impacting a solid, rigid lower structure? Don't the same laws of physics that you describe apply in both cases?

Thanks for not calling me a lier.

BTW - what about NIST forgetting to analyze all possible developments after an alleged impact! Professional? Incompetent?
 
If a solid rubber ball bounces on solid ground (not preposterous), why would not a solid, rigid upper block/section do the same when contacting/impacting a solid, rigid lower structure? Don't the same laws of physics that you describe apply in both cases?

Thanks for not calling me a lier.

BTW - what about NIST forgetting to analyze all possible developments after an alleged impact! Professional? Incompetent?

You honestly think the upper section of a building could bounce off the lower section like a rubber ball? That is simply not possible. That is not even crazy, as in, not even crazy people think that is possible. You want NIST to add a section analyzing why the top of the building didn't simply bounce? :covereyes
 
If a solid rubber ball bounces on solid ground (not preposterous), why would not a solid, rigid upper block/section do the same when contacting/impacting a solid, rigid lower structure? Don't the same laws of physics that you describe apply in both cases?

Thanks for not calling me a lier.

BTW - what about NIST forgetting to analyze all possible developments after an alleged impact! Professional? Incompetent?

Because the real engineers at NIST realized that the WTC cannot be treated the same as a rubber ball!

A ball (most likely made out of a rubber of some sort) is designed to elastically deform by a huge percentage (at least 50% of the original shape) so that i can bounce back up. This is a material property! I don't know about any of you, but I have never heard of a building being designed to elastically deform and "bounce" nor one that has every done such when it falls.

If you drop one of the outer "H" columns of the WTC onto the ground, I guarantee you that it will not "bounce". It will just land with a nice flat thud. And more than likely, make a nice impression on the ground.

If a building should "bounce" like a rubber ball (your claim), then even normal building demolitions shouldn't even be possible. The whole building should just drop the one floor and stand nicely on the ground as if nothing happened. But they don't so why is that?

You are no true engineer (or even a real one). You clearly fail to grasp even the most basic of dynamics and physics. And you cannot refute anything [X] and Dave have said, so you stick to your usual garbage of things "bouncing" or "flying away". I do hope that you are truly not teaching any children or that they will get a real education and realize just how stupid all of what you said is.

But why am I wasting my time when you have me on ignore? This shows just how truly ignorant you are if instead of learning and correcting your flawed concept, you simply ignore them if they differ from you.
 
Because the real engineers at NIST realized that the WTC cannot be treated the same as a rubber ball!

A ball (most likely made out of a rubber of some sort) is designed to elastically deform by a huge percentage (at least 50% of the original shape) so that i can bounce back up. This is a material property! I don't know about any of you, but I have never heard of a building being designed to elastically deform and "bounce" nor one that has every done such when it falls.

If you drop one of the outer "H" columns of the WTC onto the ground, I guarantee you that it will not "bounce". It will just land with a nice flat thud. And more than likely, make a nice impression on the ground.

If a building should "bounce" like a rubber ball (your claim), then even normal building demolitions shouldn't even be possible. The whole building should just drop the one floor and stand nicely on the ground as if nothing happened. But they don't so why is that?

You are no true engineer (or even a real one). You clearly fail to grasp even the most basic of dynamics and physics. And you cannot refute anything [X] and Dave have said, so you stick to your usual garbage of things "bouncing" or "flying away". I do hope that you are truly not teaching any children or that they will get a real education and realize just how stupid all of what you said is.

But why am I wasting my time when you have me on ignore? This shows just how truly ignorant you are if instead of learning and correcting your flawed concept, you simply ignore them if they differ from you.

He could be an engineer, but he clearly doesn't speak in the manner of one. I personally don't care if he is or isn't one, that rubber ball comparison killed the primordial dead horse ten times over and he's lost any credibility he had with me. (He lost it all all months ago anyway)

In the post you responded to, Heiwa missed the fundamental problem in his comparison, more fundamental than material differences, he ignored the different manner in which kinetic energy is transferred when either material is in collision.
 
You honestly think the upper section of a building could bounce off the lower section like a rubber ball? That is simply not possible. That is not even crazy, as in, not even crazy people think that is possible. You want NIST to add a section analyzing why the top of the building didn't simply bounce? :covereyes

No, I do not think the complete upper block of WTC1 will bounce on the lower structure like a rubber ball on solid ground. How could you get that impression?

According my analysis (read my papers) the upper block structure would simply be sliced apart by the lower structure at impact and after a while the destruction would be arrested.

Reason for this is that the upper block is not rigid and contains very weak parts, e.g. floors, that cannot resist forces applied on them by lower structure strong columns at/after impact.

Evidently also the lower structure suffers some local damages at/after impact as described in my papers, e.g. upper block columns damaging lower structure floors, but let's face it; half the upper block perimeter columns would have hit air outside the tower at impact and could not have participated in the destruction at all. They would have been dropping down to ground undamaged! Not seen on any videos and good evidence that there was no impact.

Anyone assuming that the upper block is just one rigid, indestructible mass is a fool and doesn't know anything about structural damage analysis.

NIST is worse! They suggest that if the kinetic energy applied by the upper block on the lower structure at impact exceeds the strain energy that the lower structure can absorb, then global collapse ensues. That is not only foolish, it is unscientific, criminal nonsens = NWO physics.
 
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Wow, Heiwa must have two people in his head typing at the same time! First he claims that the upper half must be destroyed. Then he claims that there should be no damage and there's no evidence of impact!??

Getting crazier by the day and I have to use an Electron Microscope to even see what's left of his credibility for me to slice away.
 
If a solid rubber ball bounces on solid ground (not preposterous), why would not a solid, rigid upper block/section do the same when contacting/impacting a solid, rigid lower structure? Don't the same laws of physics that you describe apply in both cases?


You're comparing rubber balls to buildings? Seriously... what the hell...? I'll be honest. The only intelligent thing in that paragraph is the fact that you didn't call the rubber ball rigid.
 
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Anyone assuming that the upper block is just one rigid, indestructible mass is a fool and doesn't know anything about structural damage analysis.
And yet you treat the lower part of the tower as if it is, assuming that the entire structure would act as a single unit. The failures do not occur globally at the same time, the failures in the lower section literally happened one floor at a time in quick succession.


NIST is worse! They suggest that if the kinetic energy applied by the upper block on the lower structure at impact exceeds the strain energy that the lower structure can absorb,
No, NIST suggests that as the entire upper section falls as a unit, it impacts a single floor exceeding that floors' strain energy. When that floor fails, the collapse continues with the added mass of one additional floor onto the next one, and so on and so on. This leads to eventually all of the floors failing.

Then again, why am I telling you this? I'm speaking to a brick wall anyway.

That is not only foolish, it is unscientific, criminal nonsens = NWO physics.
If you've got the time to dress up your flawed analysis with professional sounding jargon you've got time to put some effort into actually pointing out legitimate criticism. You're spitting out ad hominems instead at the people who did calculations for their work. Legitimate criticism would be showing how their math is wrong for starters, but you haven't made any effort to do even that
 
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If a solid rubber ball bounces on solid ground (not preposterous), why would not a solid, rigid upper block/section do the same when contacting/impacting a solid, rigid lower structure? Don't the same laws of physics that you describe apply in both cases?

Thanks for not calling me a liar.

BTW - what about NIST forgetting to analyze all possible developments after an alleged impact! Professional? Incompetent?




Heiwa: I'm going to make this as straightforward as I can.

Dave Rogers made the following post:
You've demonstrated that A*S > M1g, which was never in doubt. You've made no attempt to determine F1, and you've asserted that it's equal to M1g. If that were the case, the falling block would fall all the way to the ground at constant speed, therefore the collapse wouldn't arrest. Clearly you have no idea what the magnitude of the friction and entanglement force is, so you have no grounds for claiming it would necessarily arrest the collapse



You replied, telling him he was wrong, and that if F1 was greater then mg, the upper section would fly away.

Sorry, F1 cannot be bigger than M1g, because then the latter would fly up into the sky.


I have shown you twice now that you are wrong in this claim.

If F1 is equal to mg, as you claim it should be, then the upper section will continue to descend as a constant velocity.

In order for the upper section to decelerate at all, F1 must be greater then mg.




As I have said, until you understand this basic error, I am not going to read the rest of your case.
Why should I waste the time doing so, when you cannot even understand elementary-school level physics?



You are wrong, Dave Rogers was right. Admit your error, and correct your work.




I'm not going to let you change the topic, Heiwa.
I'm pinning you to this point until you understand the error.

So trying to divert me onto a different tack only comes across as an attempt at dodging the question.
 
No, NIST suggests that as the entire upper section falls as a unit, it impacts a single floor exceeding that floors' strain energy. When that floor fails, the collapse continues with the added mass of one additional floor onto the next one, and so on and so on. This leads to eventually all of the floors failing.

Sorry, NIST does not talk about falling floors in its report, it is just excess energy applied to and too little strain energy in the structure below to absorb it! NWO physics!

From NIST report - NISTNCSTAR1-6D chapter 5.2 - we learn:

"The aircraft impacted the north wall of WTC 1 at 8:46 a.m. … between Floor 93 and Floor 98. … The subsequent fires weakened structural subsystems, including the core columns, floors and exterior walls. The core displaced downward … At 100 min (at 10:28:18), the north, east, and west walls at Floor 98 carried 7 percent, 35 percent and 30 percent more gravity load loads … and the south wall and the core carried about 7 percent and 20 percent less loads, respectively., … At 10.28 a.m., 102 min after the aircraft impact, WTC1 began to collapse. … The release of potential energy due to downward movement of the building mass above the buckled columns exceeded the strain energy that could be absorbed by the structure. Global collapse ensued."

NIST forgets to calculate the potential and strain energies and explain why global collapse should ensue. A lot of potential energy will just be diverted away by the structure below ... and not applied to it.

Furthermore, if an impact occurs, it is columns against columns according to Bazant (and floors shaking loose).

In my analysis (if impact occurs, which is not proven) it is columns against floors at contacts, with the columns destroying the floors with collapse arrest as result - damaged floors getting entangled into one another, etc. This has happened often in structures due overload.

Complete top section against one floor is not possible at first impact - the columns are in the way! And the top section is not very strong - 95% air, 4%floors 3.7 m apart + misc, and <1% columns spread around. Top section will be destroyed at/soon after impact (with columns) and the destruction is arrested.
 
I'm not going to let you change the topic, Heiwa.
I'm pinning you to this point until you understand the error.

So trying to divert me onto a different tack only comes across as an attempt at dodging the question.

I am not changing the topic but maybe I missed your 'point'. What error have I not understood? That the upper block must continue to drop ... intact?

In my analysis, the upper block is destroyed at/soon after impact and the pieces of it get entangled in the top of the lower structure or some big parts (two perimeter walls) drop outside, etc. Destruction is arrested. Happens everytime.

But not in the WTCs. Upper blocks disappear very early and lower sections seem to explode from top down. Plenty of smoke, dust and rubble. Gravity alone cannot produce these effects.
 
Sorry, NIST does not talk about falling floors in its report, it is just excess energy applied to and too little strain energy in the structure below to absorb it! NWO physics!
No "NWO physics" to speak of, it's not rocket science. If you're talking about the entire lower structure as a unit then look at the collapse, no part of the lower structure begins to yield until the collapse threshold reaches it. The failures occurred individually in rapid succession, that's exactly what a progressive collapse is.

From NIST report - NISTNCSTAR1-6D chapter 5.2 - we learn:

"The aircraft impacted the north wall of WTC 1 at 8:46 a.m. … between Floor 93 and Floor 98. … The subsequent fires weakened structural subsystems, including the core columns, floors and exterior walls. The core displaced downward … At 100 min (at 10:28:18), the north, east, and west walls at Floor 98 carried 7 percent, 35 percent and 30 percent more gravity load loads … and the south wall and the core carried about 7 percent and 20 percent less loads, respectively., … At 10.28 a.m., 102 min after the aircraft impact, WTC1 began to collapse. … The release of potential energy due to downward movement of the building mass above the buckled columns exceeded the strain energy that could be absorbed by the structure. Global collapse ensued."
I don't know what what you're reading off of this, but this section says nothing about treating the entire lower portion of the structure as a single structural unit, as you're treating it. The lower section did not fail all at once, the only viable collapse progression there was were the floors failing one after the other progressively along with every other part of the building. The collapse videos show large sections of the core structures remaining after everything else had failed around them, it's fairly straightforward that the progression does not exhibit the behavior you propose.

NIST forgets to calculate the potential and strain energies and explain why global collapse should ensue. A lot of potential energy will just be diverted away by the structure below ... and not applied to it.
They have. They've calculated that a single floor could sustain itself, and a static load of 11 additional floors; under a dynamic load a single floor could sustain the weight of itself and 5 additional floors. In World Trade center one the dynamic load consisted of roughly 15 floors, in tower two this was roughly 29 floors.

In a progressive failure you don't have all of the structure failing at once, the upper sections are falling as a unit and then exerting all of that potential energy it had as kinetic energy onto the floor below, and this mass increases as the collapse advances. Your analysis leaves this out.


Furthermore, if an impact occurs, it is columns against columns according to Bazant (and floors shaking loose).

In my analysis (if impact occurs, which is not proven) it is columns against floors at contacts, with the columns destroying the floors with collapse arrest as result - damaged floors getting entangled into one another, etc. This has happened often in structures due overload.
It has nothing to do with floors failing at single points and then hinging downward like a trap door. That's an awfully strange assertion to make particularly when one has the entire top section of the structure coming apart, and not simply an interior set of floors.

It has everything to do with the fact that a 15 to 30 floor section of the building just slammed into a single floor with all of it's weight which was more than the individual floor could handle, this transfer of forces did not fail the entire lower section as a unit, it failed it progressively where it was weakest.


Complete top section against one floor is not possible at first impact - the columns are in the way! And the top section is not very strong - 95% air, 4%floors 3.7 m apart + misc, and <1% columns spread around. Top section will be destroyed at/soon after impact (with columns) and the destruction is arrested.

Once that top section was in motion and imparting an entire array of moment and axial forces against whatever was still intact within the impact zone that ratio of empty space to solid mass doesn't make a helluva a lot of difference in whether or not the structure is sturdy enough to hold the building in a static vertical load, all of the forces enacting on the structure from this point forward are dynamic. I would think the columns would be the least of your concerns, particularly considering it was the connection points where two column sections met that suffered the most common failures. As an engineer of any callibur even you should be aware of this.

connection failures
 
I am not changing the topic but maybe I missed your 'point'. What error have I not understood? That the upper block must continue to drop ... intact?


No.

You assert the following:
Sorry, F1 cannot be bigger than M1g, because then the latter would fly up into the sky.


But this is patently false. I have run through the calculations for you twice now. Dave Rogers has explained it to you.

If F1 (the resistance force) is equal to M1g (the accelerating force due to gravity) all you have done is canceled out the accelerations.

No acceleration will occur. This means the velocity does not change. The falling mass (which you must agree already has to be moving in order to be able to come into contact with the lower section) will therefore continue to fall downwards at a constant velocity. It does not matter if you consideer the falling mass as a solid block, a conglomerations of pieces, rubble, or whatever. It is mass, it is falling, and it can not and will not slow and halt the collapse if F1 = M1g.

For such a thing to happen, F1 has to be greater than F1

The situation is dynamic, not static.
The falling mass is falling! This means it is in motion! Which means you can not treat it as a static scenario!
You need to factor the motion into your calculations.

And yet you tell Dave Rogers he is wrong. When you make the fatal error of treating an obviously dynamic situation as if it were static, and assuming that having the resistive force equal to the gravity force will slow and halt the falling mass.



That is your error.
 
The upper block would be sliced into 1000's of smaller parts at impacts that can then not cause further damages/destruction to the lower structure.

NIST evidently does not investigate that possibility, i.e. they didn't do a complete analysis. I wonder why?

Ah, so that explains why this weapon was phased out. It was obviously ineffective, as hundreds or thousands of small projectiles couldn't possibly do the same amount of damage as one big one. Right?
 
Since Heiwa has me on ignore, could someone who's not on his list repost what I'm going to say?

Heiwa, please review this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOLp4doE51Q

I'm sure you know that statically, each of these concrete blocks can hold many times its own weight before breaking.

However, when the martial artist applies the dynamic load from his "chop", what happens to the bricks? Though there is the possibility for an untrained person to break his hand, this martial artist did not and yet the blocks still broke down the middle.

Care to explain how this shouldn't be possible?

The other thing I don't get is that you constantly repeat that the top structure should be destroyed because it's 90% air...blah blah blah. But isn't the lower structure made the exact same way? If you state the top structure should be destroyed (which it was as the progressive collapse happened), the same applies to the bottom structure. What you've done is essentially flipped what you think the NIST report says. You're treating the top structure as "non-rigid", but then treating the bottom structure as "rigid". On top of your fundamental physics mistake that [X] and Dave pointed out, you are just digging yourself a deeper hole.
 
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Care to explain how this shouldn't be possible?
I'd be curious of this as well

Heiwa, please review this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOLp4doE51Q

I'm sure you know that statically, each of these concrete blocks can hold many times its own weight before breaking.

However, when the martial artist applies the dynamic load from his "chop", what happens to the bricks? Though there is the possibility for an untrained person to break his hand, this martial artist did not and yet the blocks still broke down the middle.
 

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