What ELSE about Obama am I going to find out about?!

[Cleon]

I think it is evidence of this case's merit.

You are incorrect.

There are 2 ways to put this issue to rest. Show the actual documents (the quickest way to dismissal and conclusively puts to rest any doubt), or motion to dismiss (takes longer and does not conclusively put to rest any doubt).

This is inexplicably silly.

There are two ways for this to get resolved:

1. Obama files a motion to dismiss, either submitting the documents or not. Since Obama has a US Passport--again, this is proof of citizenship--there is no good reason to require him to show the documents in question. The onus is on Berg--he can respond to the motion for dismissal with whatever evidence he has (which amounts to "squat"). The judge will then determine if Berg has enough evidence of his claim to warrant a trial.

2. Obama can go to trial, wasting the court's time (and taxpayer money) in a lengthier, costlier process, and giving unnecessary credit to Berg's claims, when he could simply have filed for a motion to dismiss and let the court get on with business that actually matters.


You keep wanting to put the onus on Obama to prove his citizenship.

That's not the way the legal system here works.

It's up to Berg to supply evidence of his claims. Not Obama.

You really have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Skeptic Guy]

Wow, just wow. Do you actually believe that the security and background check for POTUS is roughly the same as for a Walmart greeter? That no-one checks little things like oh I don't know, citizenship, terrorist links, etc? If so you have a very, very low opinion of your country. So I guess I have to ask you; Why do you hate America?

I would worry about the background check if it had been done by the McCain campaign as evidenced by the stellar job they did with Palin.

LOL I didn't realize that Snopes.com and FactCheck.org were the final word on whether people met the requirements of president.

Go to www.factcheck.org and look at the top:

If that doesn't pop up a red flag, I'll connect the dots for you. The Annenberg Political Fact Check is part of the Annenberg Public Policy Center. Obama was on the board of the Chicago Annenberg Challenge, which is also part of the Annenberg Public Policy Center.

I like Snopes, but they're mostly for urban legends. All they've done is provide the image that Obama made available on his website.

I have another 'image' for you here.

It shows that natural born US citizen or not, his mother divorced and remarried Lolo Soetoro from Indonesia. In Obama's book he says he was in school in Indonesia for 4 years under the name of Barry Soetoro. The only way he could have done that was for his step father to either adopt him, or 'acknowledge' him. Either way he would have had to become an Indonesian citizen.

That's not correct, a friend of mine used to be based in Jakarta and had his children going to local schools. His kids never had to become citizens of Indonesia. My kids went to school in Singapore...never became citizens of Singapore...

I didn't say that. I said for Barry to go to school in Indonesia, he had to become an Indonesian citizen.

Nope.

 

[DrBaltar]

That's not correct, a friend of mine used to be based in Jakarta and had his children going to local schools. His kids never had to become citizens of Indonesia. My kids went to school in Singapore...never became citizens of Singapore...

Nope.

During the middle of the Indonesia-Malaysia confrontation? Yes.

 

[DrBaltar]

It's up to Berg to supply evidence of his claims. Not Obama.

Did Berg supply evidence of his claims to the court?

 

[Damien Evans]

What is unbelievable is that the DNC would approve Obama's nomination without proof of US citizenship.

Which is why they didn't.

 

[Damien Evans]

They are probably awaiting the court's decision. Rather than simply showing his birth certificate to the court and putting all this behind him, Obama has filed a motion to dismiss.


LOL I love America, which is why I don't want just any illegal alien coming in from off the street and running this country. Haven't you ever heard your parents say something like "If I didn't love you I wouldn't care what you did"? The fact is people do know about terrorist links, citizenship problems, etc etc etc etc etc, and do nothing about it. Because the media is gaga over the prospect of a democrat in the whitehouse. Also... if they do make a case of it, they are called racists. As someone who loves my country, I am deeply concerned about a number of issues:

- Obama's ties to terrorist Bill Ayers. And, as I learned today, the possible ghost writing of Obama's book by Ayers - which when coupled with Ayers appointing Obama head of the CAC, and Ayers hosting Obama's launch to the senate from his home, suggests that Ayers is the guy pulling the strings.

- Obama's ties to organizations such as ACORN, which Obama raised money for via the CAC, represented them in court, and gave leadership seminars to. ACORN is being investigated (with overwhelming evidence) for voter fraud in at least 13 states. There are many confirmed cases where people have registered up to 70 times. Dead people registered. Fictional people registered. Inmates have registered. Even Mickey Mouse has registered. What ACORN is doing is a federal crime. So far, no convictions have been made. Given Obama's close ties to ACORN, and this election's rampant voter fraud, it's one of those things that makes me go 'hmmm'. ACORN also aggressively urged banks to loan to minorities who couldn't repay loans. When that didn't work, they lobbied congress to use the Community Reinvestment Act to force Freddie & Fannie to buy these loans and create a market for subprime lending. This is what has now put us, and much of the world, in financial chaos. I'm not saying Obama directed ACORN to do this, but he certainly seemed to help financially, and legally wherever he could.

- The DNC not taking the necessary steps to ensure their candidates have met even the most basic requirements for being president.

- The general brain-dead condition of our politicians. i.e. Florida now has 30,000 inmates registered to vote. This is illegal. It happened before, and Florida sent letters out to them saying they couldn't vote. But they accidentally sent letters to some citizens who were not inmates. This caused an outrage, and they don't want to have another outrage, so they will do nothing about the 30,000 inmates who are registered to vote... which is an outrage.

Now tell me. Would someone who loves his country support these things?

The DNC (and RNC) are supposed to do the initial screening of any candidates they put forth. The DNC are also implicated in this case. Instead of doing their duty and verifying Obama's records, they instead joined with Obama in Obama's motion to dismiss.

You're either the worlds greatest deadpan comedian or the worlds biggest doucebag, I can't quite figure out which.

 

[dudalb]

Dr. Baltar is singlehandledly giving all the Over the Top Obama supporters on this board some competition in the Blind Partisanshiip to the point or irrationality department.

 

[Upchurch]

Dr. Baltar is singlehandledly giving all the Over the Top Obama supporters on this board some competition in the Blind Partisanshiip to the point or irrationality department.

Since when was good skeptical review of a claim "Blind Partisanship"?

Berg and Baltar's claim has the classic elements of a conspiracy theory:

• Rather than proving their claim, it is up to others to disprove their claim. (Obama must provide his birth certificate)
• Evidence that does disprove their claim are forgeries. (The version of his birth certificate that Obama did provide is not credible)
• A mysterious, un-named agency with secret power. (To fake all of Obama's documentation.)
• A hero who, alone, has the power to see what all others have missed. (Berg)
• Un-cited second hand anecdotal evidence that backs their claims are valid. (Some guy says that Obama's grandmother says that Obama was born in Kenya)
• Elements that don't favor the claim are ignored. (Obama's passport, Obama's parents being in Hawaii when Obama was born, a lack of naturalization records)

This is precisely the kind of woo-iness the JREF is promoting critical thinking to counter.

 

[Whiplash]

Since when was good skeptical review of a claim "Blind Partisanship"?

Maybe when it seems as if the only time a "good skeptical review of a claim" is only ever made is when the subject matter does not fit into ones world view or political ideals.

But for what it's worth, I accept fully that Obama is a citizen.

 

[Upchurch]

Maybe when it seems as if the only time a "good skeptical review of a claim" is only ever made is when the subject matter does not fit into ones world view or political ideals.

I don't remember the thread, but I did the same when the issue of McCain's status as a natural born citizen was brought up. Thing is, I don't remember anyone clinging to it quite as hard as Baltar, here.

 

[Skeptic Guy]

During the middle of the Indonesia-Malaysia confrontation? Yes.

The Indonesian - Malaysian confrontation ran from 1962 to 1966. Obama moved to Indonesia in 1967, so it wasn't in "the middle" of the conflict, but rather after it had been resolved. However, I don't have any evidence that the laws in Indonesia regarding who could attend public schools changed during that time, do you?

 

[DrBaltar]

The Indonesian - Malaysian confrontation ran from 1962 to 1966. Obama moved to Indonesia in 1967, so it wasn't in "the middle" of the conflict, but rather after it had been resolved. However, I don't have any evidence that the laws in Indonesia regarding who could attend public schools changed during that time, do you?

Not my claim, but that is the claim.

 

[Skeptic Guy]

Ah, so it's not true. Good.

 

[DrBaltar]

Ah, so it's not true. Good.

LOL that's a snazzy leap in logic there. His claim just might be backed by evidence, which I would hope an experienced lawyer would know to bring to the case.

 

[Cleon]

LOL that's a snazzy leap in logic there.

Nope. We've conclusively proven that Obama is a citizen, right here in this thread.

His claim just might be backed by evidence, which I would hope an experienced lawyer would know to bring to the case.

And Sasquatch just might be hiding in my garage.

His claim is not backed by any evidence. You choose to believe it for reasons I cannot fathom--though it's looking at this point that you choose to believe any rumor about Obama, no matter how frivolous or flimsy the claim.

 

[Upchurch]

There are two ways to disprove a hypothesis. First, show that the hypothesis is logically inconsistent. Second, show that the hypothesis is inconsistent with the evidence.

Hypothesis: Obama was born in Kenya and immediately migrated to the US.

Evidence available:

• Available scan of Obama's Hawaii birth certificate.
• Independent verification of the birth certificate
• Birth announcement in the August 13, 1961 edition of the Honolulu Advertiser.
• State Department issued US Passport
• No available naturalization record for Obama

So, either this is a conspiracy 47 years in the making, involving everyone from local newspapers to watchdog groups to the State Department **OR** Obama is a natural born citizen.

Occam's razor.

His claim just might be backed by evidence

But what could that evidence possibly be? A foreign passport is not enough because a person can be both a natural born citizen and hold dual citizenship. His best hope is to find a naturalization record which, as I pointed out, has not yet been produced.

Despite the sheer weight of the evidence mounted against Berg's claim, you think it has merit.

 

[skeptical]

I really cannot believe this thread is still going on.

There is ample evidence that Obama was born in Hawaii as has been posted.. That makes him a US citizen regardless of any other factors. As I posted previously, what someone did or did do to enroll him in school in Indonesia is completely fricking irrelevant because a US citizen cannot involuntarily renounce their citizenship. A child cannot voluntarily renounce their citizenship. Given this, there would have to be evidence of Obama explicitly renouncing his citizenship. There is none. Case closed.

That anyone still thinks there is any merit to this is unbelievable.

 

[neltana]

Textual Analysis

I hate to derail this thread back onto the OP, but here it goes:

The Jack Cashill article that is referenced by the Andy McCarthy article referenced by the OP (whew!) talks about an analysis the author conducted comparing Obama's Dreams From My Father to Bill Ayers' Fugitive Days. http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/10/who_wrote_dreams_from_my_fathe_1.html

Putting aside the political overlay, what do folks think of the analysis? Cashill makes the following points:

- Dreams From My Father and Ayers' book have similarities in sentence length and imagery. In contrast, Obama's second book Audacity of Hope does not have these characteristics.

- Both books fudged dates in similar ways to tie an age milestone to a major American event.

- Both books have a lot of stuff about racism (which somehow shows that the black guy ISN'T the author)

- Ayers, in a 1997 book, specifically mentions Obama as a writer (not a politician), even though Dreams From My Father, published in 1995, wasn't widely known or successful until much later.

Now, I've never read any of these books. I have no idea if Cashill is cherry-picking quotes or if he is being square in his analysis. Can anyone render an opinion on this front?

Even if Cashill is being square, how convincing are these points? Even Cashill seems to acknowledge that they don't prove anything. Are they enough to even raise suspicion that Obama had a ghost writer (not necessarily Ayers).

I'm interested in the answer more from an academic "Was Shakespeare actually Bacon or De Vere?" standpoint rather than a "Should Obama Be President" standpoint.

 

[varwoche]

The Jack Cashill article...

There is another thread dedicated to this inane topic.

At least be aware that Cashill is a CT'ist and a half. For instance, he claims that (no BeetleJuice, no!) Clinton killed Ron Brown. He claims that terrorists shot down the passenger plane that crashed off Long Island in the 90's with a missile. Though not a CT per se(?), he places Hitler around the neck of Darwin.

If the words of Cashill make this topic worthy of serious consideration, then there is no outlandish topic* on Odin's green earth that is not also worthy of serious consideration.

* e.g. might sasquatch be hiding in Cleon's garage? Come to think of it, I think I read something about that somewhere.

 

[DrBaltar]

I really cannot believe this thread is still going on.

There is ample evidence that Obama was born in Hawaii as has been posted.. That makes him a US citizen regardless of any other factors. As I posted previously ....

Oops... the thread just went on a little longer.