My parents like Palin...

[Wolfman]

Okay, my folks are Canadian, so it doesn't really impact on the upcoming election; but the discussion around this revelation rather shocked me. It started when I said something negative about Palin, and my mother looked at me rather shocked. "Everyone I know only has positive things to say about her!"

What rock has she been living under? Well, she and my father are fundamentalist Christians who work at a missionary training center...and apparently Palin is considered almost to be God's Appointed Leader by the lot of them. Why? Because she's a strong Christian who has the strength of her beliefs, and will not be intimidated by the evil anti-Christian forces.

I couldn't sit by quietly; in fact, I went through the very same thing when Bush was first running for President. At that time, they didn't listen to much of what he said at all, or know much about his policies, or care about his experience (or lack thereof). The only thing they cared about was that he was a "solid Christian leader".

Even my parents have come around to consider Bush a complete failure as a leader. But what shocked me was how they learned nothing from it whatsoever. And when I pointed this out, my parents A) acknowledged that I was correct in regards to my comments about Bush, and B) that this has no bearing on the current situation, since their main responsibility as Christians is to support leaders who hold the same values as they do.

And that, my friends, is much of the problem. There's a whole slew of fundamentalist Christians out there who think exactly the same way. Is Palin competent to be a leader? It doesn't matter -- she's a good Christian woman, and God will guide her, so none of the rest of it matters.

 

[Oliver]

You should ask that in the religion subforum, there are some people
living under the same rock you mentioned.

 

[richardm]

It is a bit scary. I wonder, though, if it's any more of a problem than the people who invariably vote for the same party no matter what that party is currently up to? I suppose at least in the latter case you might hope there are some core beliefs unique to that party that they're clinging to (political beliefs, that is, not religious ones).

 

[Wolfman]

It is a bit scary. I wonder, though, if it's any more of a problem than the people who invariably vote for the same party no matter what that party is currently up to? I suppose at least in the latter case you might hope there are some core beliefs unique to that party that they're clinging to (political beliefs, that is, not religious ones).

Oh, I'd consider them to be very similar phenomenon, for the most part; I guess I was already more familiar with the political variation, but the religious one for some reason caught me a little off guard.

 

[XBoxWarrior]

And that, my friends, is much of the problem.

Well it's obvious from this quote, that you are a McCain supporter...Why do you hate the baby Jesus?

I have some nutter friends that vote the same way, it's Jesus or the highway...and this time around they have the added delusion of maintaining that "that one" is a Muslim.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

Query: Do your parents consider conspicuous Christian religiosity a requirement to be a good person?

 

[King of the Americas]

My Dad LOVES Governor Palin. He said she is- "a breathe of fresh air", "a woman who knows how to handle a gun", "a good Christian Mom", and my personal favorite "someone like me".

"Dad", I said "No offense, but I don't want you to EVER be President.", to which he smiled.

"Would you want the Mayor of Gainesville (a small city just down the road from us), to be the next President?", to which he sherked.

"She shot a wolf from a helicopter, and that's all I needed to hear. At least she will let me keep my guns!"

I love my Dad dearly, but if I could I would revoke his voting priviledges.

 

[Lemastre]

The religious-right crowd doesn't even require evidence of any particularly christian action on the part of the candidate (e.g. starting a pogrom or a holy war) -- just the candidate's word that he's a christian. Of course, facts don't impress these people, or they wouldn't be religionists in the first place.

 

[Thunder]

you know....a really cruel, sadistic person once told me that the American people are idiots.

I vehemently disagreed. But seeing all these folks loving Sarah Palin, makes me really think that perhaps, indeed close to 50% of the American people may be idiots.

 

[CapelDodger]

you know....a really cruel, sadistic person once told me that the American people are idiots.

Most people are idiots, wherever you look. But there are degrees of idiocy.

But seeing all these folks loving Sarah Palin, makes me really think that perhaps, indeed close to 50% of the American people may be idiots.

Going by recent polls only about 30% may be that idiotic, and that proportion could shrink as people learn more about the real Sarah Palin. From what I'm picking up, even McCain is running against Palin these days. It may have occurred to him that should he win, he won't have long to live ...

 

[VanillaCone]

The only conclusion I can draw is that all Christians are uncontrollably masochistic.

Doesn't their religion sort of preach that?

 

[Bikewer]

I've been hearing that "she's like me" sobriquet frequently in NPR's "man on the street" interviews over the last few weeks.
"She's a working mom." "I can relate to her." etc, etc.

Maddening.

One analyst had it right, I fear. He said that a percentage of voters weigh the candidates carefully, considering their positions, record, promises, history, etc.

But a fairly large percentage don't do this at all; it's much more of a visceral choice based on how much resemblance the candidate has to themselves. "He seems like a nice guy; someone you could have a beer with..."
How much of that have we heard?

 

[dahduh]

...their main responsibility as Christians is to support leaders who hold the same values as they do.

...facts don't impress these people...

...it's much more of a visceral choice based on how much resemblance the candidate has to themselves.

Yup. For some folks, values like respect for authority, loyalty, and 'purity' are more highly valued than mere evidence and reason. Ergo, arguing on the basis of evidence and reason is not terribly effective. If you do, you might even persuade them you are correct, but then there's the 'but...' at the end that trumps it.

Wolfman, you could try to appeal to the values that your folks hold highly. For example, that she's a 'good Christian'. Really? How sincere a Christian is Palin? Is she really a good Christian or is she just cynically parading her Christianity for political ends and making suckers out of people who believe in her? When she says she's on a 'mission from God', is that really God she's listening to or some loony tune of her own? Agreed, God can never be mistaken, but just maybe your folks might be mistaken about Palin's godliness.

Perhaps that's a discussion that might prove fruitful.

 

[Wolfman]

Wolfman, you could try to appeal to the values that your folks hold highly. For example, that she's a 'good Christian'. Really? How sincere a Christian is Palin? Is she really a good Christian or is she just cynically parading her Christianity for political ends and making suckers out of people who believe in her? When she says she's on a 'mission from God', is that really God she's listening to or some loony tune of her own? Agreed, God can never be mistaken, but just maybe your folks might be mistaken about Palin's godliness.

Perhaps that's a discussion that might prove fruitful.

Unfortunately, we've had many such discussions in the past, and neither of my folks -- for all that they are sincere, honest, good people -- have a critical thinking bone in their entire body. These are people who used to "cast out the demon of slumber" when my dad was getting tired and in danger of falling asleep at the wheel after driving for 8 hours straight.

 

[Whiplash]

you know....a really cruel, sadistic person once told me that the American people are idiots.

I vehemently disagreed. But seeing all these folks loving Sarah Palin, makes me really think that perhaps, indeed close to 50% of the American people may be idiots.

It's amazing how this can go both ways. I sure don't understand it, but I feel exactly the same but coming at it from 180 degrees the opposite direction as you.

And I know I'm not an idiot. Between the many IQ tests I've taken in the last 20 years I've scored between a 142 and a 147 consistently. And I'm quite sure that many of you are equally well endowed in the intellect department.

So what is it that causes us, of both sides, to be convinced that the other side is full of bumbling morons?

 

[Wolfman]

So what is it that causes us, of both sides, to be convinced that the other side is full of bumbling morons?

Because the other side is always, by default, a bunch of bumbling morons

Seriously...it comes down to the values that you place. For example, if your top value is stability and safety, it is the intelligent choice to go for someone who offers that, even if it means sacrificing some freedoms. If your top value is defense of your particular religious beliefs, then it is the intelligent choice to go for someone who offers that, even if some of their other policies have problems. If your top value is the environment, then it is the intelligent choice to go for someone who offers that.

Etc., etc., etc.

Throughout history, very highly intelligent people have been lead to very incorrect conclusions based on faulty assumptions and presuppositions. In truth, the fact that someone believes in something that seems absolutely idiotic to us is not a 'proof' of lack of intelligence.

 

[NobbyNobbs]

My Dad LOVES Governor Palin. He said she is- "a breathe of fresh air", "a woman who knows how to handle a gun", "a good Christian Mom", and my personal favorite "someone like me".

"Dad", I said "No offense, but I don't want you to EVER be President.", to which he smiled.

"Would you want the Mayor of Gainesville (a small city just down the road from us), to be the next President?", to which he sherked.

"She shot a wolf from a helicopter, and that's all I needed to hear. At least she will let me keep my guns!"

I love my Dad dearly, but if I could I would revoke his voting priviledges.

My father-in-law is similar. Though I don't know what his opinion of Palin is, I do know that he thinks the 2nd Amendment is the only Amendment.

Unfortunately, we've had many such discussions in the past, and neither of my folks -- for all that they are sincere, honest, good people -- have a critical thinking bone in their entire body. These are people who used to "cast out the demon of slumber" when my dad was getting tired and in danger of falling asleep at the wheel after driving for 8 hours straight.

It utterly astonishes (and impresses) me that the product of the two people you describe can have a critically thinking mind that contributes so well to the skeptic community. How does that happen, do you think?

 

[Wolfman]

It utterly astonishes (and impresses) me that the product of the two people you describe can have a critically thinking mind that contributes so well to the skeptic community. How does that happen, do you think?

I've done a lot of thinking about this myself...given my upbringing and the environment I lived in, I shouldn't be like this at all. Basically, I think that my mother is (or was) at heart a critical thinker. When we've had debates on different issues, she was at least able to understand my arguments, even if not agree with them (my father can't even understand my arguments, much less agree). But Mom was raised in a very restrictive and religious home, taught about the "woman's role in the family", and then married an Anglican priest who was also quite traditional in his views.

In fact, there have been several times when, after arguments/debates in which my mother and father both sided against me, my mother later told me that she personally understood my arguments, but felt it was her duty to support her husband.

And some of it was, quite frankly, accidental. After graduating high school, I went to one of the most fundamentalist, conservative Bible colleges in North America, planning on being an evangelistic missionary. But I also went there to understand why I believed what I believed...and as they started giving me answers, I found they just didn't make sense. And unlike most of my classmates, who were able to ignore the apparent contradictions and illogic, I couldn't. Which led me, very slowly, to eventually realizing that I could no longer accept it, and that I was an atheist.

I think that my mother, given a different environment, could very likely have turned out like me. But she's spent her entire life in an environment that consistently reinforced a worldview that was entirely contrary to skeptical thinking. I didn't really start to change until I got away from that influence; my mother's never been able to get away from it.