• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

"Beat me to death"

I have at no point argued against that point. I pointed that you have certain limitations different to those here. Agreed?


Yes, Germany does have extended laws concerning already existing laws
in other western societies
, based on historical experiences being made.
What's bad about that in light of what happened over here? :confused:
 
Yes, Germany does have extended laws concerning already existing laws
in other western societies
, based on historical experiences being made.
What's bad about that in light of what happened over here? :confused:
Glad you finally agreed to my point. Now, on to your next point. By "what happened over here" I assume you mean the Holocaust?
 
...is more important than allowing the same kind of hate-speech that led to the things that I just mentioned.
Most Jews that are murdered are killed by Muslims. Most anti-Jewish hate speech is spoken by Muslims.

You've got your assignment now. Get to work.
 
Most Jews that are murdered are killed by Muslims. Most anti-Jewish hate speech is spoken by Muslims.

You've got your assignment now. Get to work.


Oh, so now the Muslims sparked the 6-million holocaust??? :boggled:
That's even sadder.
 
Oh, so now the Muslims sparked the 6-million holocaust??? :boggled:
No. Muslims are NOW engaging in rhetoric against Jews. Muslims are NOW killing Jews. Get up to speed.

Germans are not so much of threat at the moment.
 
It's a fact.
That hasn't been established.

So while it may also appeal to emotions, the circumstances at the time are real. Which is a moral issue as well. And I understand, that moral issues are nothing but "appeal to emotions", are they NOT?
No, morals are reasoned. Otherwise mob rule and vigilante justice would be appropriate. It's true that our morality is rooted in emotion but a rapist can't justify his actions because it made him feel good or a father killing his child's killer because of emotion.
 
That hasn't been established.



So the evidence concerning the Holocaust is flawed? :(

No, morals are reasoned. Otherwise mob rule and vigilante justice would be appropriate. It's true that our morality is rooted in emotion but a rapist can't justify his actions because it made him feel good or a father killing his child's killer because of emotion.


And I agree. So do you agree that "skapegoating" may do harm in light
if Germanies history despite the argument that free speech should have
a higher priority than citizens/human life? :boggled:
 
I should add that the German laws in question are primarily meant to
protect Citizens.

Not to limit freedom of speech.

That should be quite obvious to those who read and understood the
German laws. To say that Germany is about limiting "Freedom of Speech"
is dishonest at best. And I assume that Darat does understand that from
what I read so far.
 
So the evidence concerning the Holocaust is flawed?
No, your example of the "beat me to death" victim.





And I agree. So do you agree that "skapegoating" may do harm in light if Germanies history despite the argument that free speech should have a higher priority than citizens/human life?
You are not making any sense. This thread (your thread) is about restricting anti-Jewish rhetoric.
  1. Anti-Jewish rhetoric should be restricted.
  2. Anti-Jewish rhetoric should not be restricted.
Please make up your mind, which is it?
 
Last edited:
No, your example of the "beat me to death" victim.


You are not making any sense.
  • Anti-Jewish rhetoric should be restricted.
  • Anti-Jewish rhetoric should not be restricted.
Please pick one, which is it?


So you're saying that my Grandma lied to make Jews look good? :(
Why should she do that?

Anti-Jewish opinions are part of "Freedom of expression". Denying
the Holocaust despite the overwhelming evidence is slander. So
what's the difference between the laws in your system in contrast
to the laws in the German system?
 
So you're saying that my Grandma lied to make Jews look good?
I don't know that your gradma even made such a claim.

Anti-Jewish opinions are part of "Freedom of expression". Denying the Holocaust despite the overwhelming evidence is slander.
One is linked directly to contemporary killing of Jews. The other isn't.

It's your job to figure out which is which.

Or is that you don't really care about the death of Jews.
 
I don't know that your gradma even made such a claim.

One is linked directly to contemporary killing of Jews. The other isn't.

It's your job to figure out which is which.

Or is that you don't really care about the death of Jews.



My point is quite clear:

I think that endangering citizens does have a higher priority than
"free speech".

You disagree, because...
 
Oliver,

Apparently, your argument is that Germans are somehow different than the rest of the world. In the rest of the world -- or at least, in the vast majority of free, western nations -- we are quite able to provide people with the right to freedom of speech, including racism and holocaust denial, without having our countries turn into fascist regimes.

It is, in fact, quite amazing just how much you sound like the Americans whom you criticize here so regularly.

The United States government, under the "leadership" of George Bush, used fear as a means of limiting peoples' freedoms. They repeated story after story about the atrocities committed by terrorists, and said, "It is necessary to take away some of your freedoms in order to prevent this from ever happening again." And what does Oliver do? Oliver goes and tells us a tragic story, and uses that in exactly the same manner, to argue that freedoms that are enjoyed in the majority of other democratic western nations should be denied to the German people.

And skip the whole thing about this being the same as libel or slander laws, or nonsense like that. The laws in many other nations very clearly differentiate between libel and slander, and what you are talking about. For example, libel and slander does not include claiming that someone did not do something bad that someone else claims they did (a prime example...it is not either libelous or slanderous to claim that it was not Muslims who flew planes into the WTC. Nor is it libelous or slanderous to claim that the U.S. gov't, or Jews, or anyone else was behind it. Nor would it be libelous or slanderous to entirely deny that the event happened, or to argue that not as many people died as the authorities claim).

I despise the way that the U.S. gov't used fear tactics to justify limiting the freedoms of American people; and I similarly dislike Germans using fear tactics to justify limiting the fredoms of German people. I particularly dislike it when Americans/Germans/anyone not only restrict such freedoms, but then insist that other nations must cooperate with them in restricting those freedoms.

Don't get me wrong -- Gerald Toben is a despicable man, and below contempt. But holding beliefs that I find despicable does not make a person a criminal. Nor does explaining those beliefs to others. Now, if the man actually encouraged/incited people towards acts of violence against people based on their race, or engaged in such acts himself, I'd fully support arresting and imprisoning him. But so far as I can see, he has not done that. Simply telling people what you believe does not constitute incitement. If it did, then every time I explained my atheist beliefs, and why I believe no god exists, I'd be "guilty" of religious attacks, and likewise subject to prosecution and imprisonment.

Bush & Oliver -- same tactics, same arguments. Repression/denial of basic democratic freedoms justified through use of fear tactics and vague claims that such repression is necessary to "prevent" the same tragedies from happening again.
 
Last edited:
Bush & Oliver -- same tactics, same arguments. Repression/denial of basic democratic freedoms justified through use of fear tactics and vague claims that such repression is necessary to "prevent" the same tragedies from happening again.
Good post.
 

Back
Top Bottom