Troopergate/Ayers reaction: the old McCain shines through.

[Oliver]

No one on the right is trying to say that he's a an enemy of the state. That's pure spin and exaggeration. The question is whether Obama's actions with Ayres reflect negativley on his judgement, and whether that makes him questionable as a candidate for president.

That's crap - and you know that. Because it would also question McCain's
judgment and candidacy, as Bill will point out for you:

 

[Tricky]

No one on the right is trying to say that he's a an enemy of the state. That's pure spin and exaggeration. The question is whether Obama's actions with Ayres reflect negativley on his judgement, and whether that makes him questionable as a candidate for president.

His judgement in associating with a terrible criminal. Not that he's a terrorist himself. Come on already.

Don't say "no one on the right". Were that all of the Right were in agreement with you here. Sadly, some are calling Obama a terrorist.

As for his judgment, well, I cannot see that he has done anything that indicates he is taking advice from Ayers or from Wright for that matter. You shouldn't be tainted from just being in the same room with a "bad person". This smacks of the kind of "bad judgment" claims that some were touting when Obama said he'd meet with Hamas.

Just because you disagree with someone (even strongly) doesn't mean you can't work with them for a good cause. If George W. Bush came to help out in the hurricane relief center where I've been working, I wouldn't storm out or fear that I'd been tainted by working with him. I'd even shake his hand and say "thanks for helping."

Ayres is a piece of garbage, and anyone with any sense should condemn what he did strongly. I hate to see that so many seem to think he's just not that big of a deal. He's the same as Timothy McVeigh. Just that he's on the left.

That is greatly incorrect. The Weather Underground planted their bombs so that they would NOT kill people. McVeigh did just the opposite. In fact, the only people killed by TWU were their own members. This does not mean I agree with what they did, but they were more into making a political statement than trying to harm people. I truly hope you can see the difference between them and McVeigh who simply wanted blood.

If McCain was in any way assocaited with someone who had bombed abortion clinics, even if it was 40 years ago, you guys would be going ape **** crazy about it, and you know it.

It would depend on what he was like now. If he had been a respected college professor and philanthropist for twenty years, I would be a lot less "ape ****". I'd accept his help in the Hurricane Relief Center too. I wouldn't let him around the gasoline drums.

 

[T.A.M.]

I did not follow american politics to a great degree prior to this election cycle, so I cannot comment on exactly who the "old" McCain was...

When I saw his response to the lynch mob, my thoughts were mixed...My first instinct was,

"you reap what you sew Johnny!"

but then as I thought about it more, I had to feel bad for him...I now see, just how truely this man has been led down a nasty path by those who would put EVERYTHING beneath retaining the white house. I saw, I heard in his voice, how he was struggling with what the campaign had become. I hope to see this continue, and to see the campaign turn back to what is important to Americans, and the world (as a foreigner) as a whole.

But of course, this is just the opinion of your neighbour to the south of the country of Alaska...

TAM

 

[T.A.M.]

I find this whole Ayers thing ridiculous really.

The man's "relationship" with Obama is tangental at best. Was Obama, as an up and coming politician suppose to vet every person that was elected to ANY COMMITTEE that Obama was also on? Was he to Vet every single person that may have donated money to his campaign?

I know the argument on this could go back and forth, but really, it is a pathetic, last ditch effort by the McCain campaign. Everyone but the low information voter can see that.

TAM

 

[Oliver]

Everyone but the low information voter can see that.

TAM

Yep. That's the scary part in this election.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

No one on the right is trying to say that he's a an enemy of the state. That's pure spin and exaggeration. The question is whether Obama's actions with Ayres reflect negativley on his judgement, and whether that makes him questionable as a candidate for president.

His judgement in associating with a terrible criminal. Not that he's a terrorist himself. Come on already.

Palin said that Obama is "someone who sees America, it seems, as being so imperfect that he's palling around with terrorists who would target their own country."

It doesn't sound like she's concerned about his judgement, but about his attitude toward America.

I think you need to spin it to see it the way you're reading it (that she's worried about Obama's judgement in choosing associates? that his judgement that the good of the non-profit that raises funds for public education outweighs the actions of one of its members some many years ago back when Obama was a child?)

And for the record, Ayers is not "a terrible criminal"--technically because charges against him were dropped, and pragmatically because the chances of him ever committing an act of terrorism in the future are virtually nil.

Note: I don't approve in any way of his role in founding of the Weather Underground or his participation in acts of violence in any way whatsoever. I suspect Obama shares this view. (Is Palin suggesting that he doesn't?)

So what exactly is Palin's criticism of Obama?

 

[MattusMaximus]

Sadly, I have to agree.
I think at one time he might have been ready to be President, but the longing for the White House got to him and he made his deal with the devil in the form of the right wing of the Republican Party.

Yes, it was sad to see McCain sell out to those folks. Very sad indeed. I could have voted for him for president in 2000, but no more.

I agree the rheteoric we are hearing at McCain rallies are no worse then what we have been hearing from the Left for the past eight years,but it is scary that the extremists at both end of the spectrum seem to be gaining power.

I have to agree with at least some of what you've said here. I started to get involved in politics about 4 years ago, after Bush won a second term. In my time I have run into more than a few people on the political left who have given me some chills. I even ran into one guy who is a 9/11-Truther and believes wholeheartedly that Bush/Cheney planned those attacks. It makes me sick to my stomach.

And some of what I am rading on this very forum makes me afraid;I see everything I disliked about the past eight years.....the arrogance, the total intolerence of the other side;the regarding of the other party not as opponents but as evil infidels to be destroyed by any means necessary...being displayed by the Left.

Agreed again. I have been shocked by some of the things I've seen here, from both sides. I have chided some on my side for the worst of the comments, and shaken my head in disbelief at other comments.

I do what I can to tamp down what I see as excessive partisanship with my fellow Dems. Just today I was out canvassing and showing some newbies the ropes, and I made a big point to get them to understand that "Republicans are people, too" and deserve to be treated with respect. The sad thing is that I even have to have that discussion with people.

 

[MattusMaximus]

No one on the right is trying to say that he's a an enemy of the state. That's pure spin and exaggeration. The question is whether Obama's actions with Ayres reflect negativley on his judgement, and whether that makes him questionable as a candidate for president.

His judgement in associating with a terrible criminal. Not that he's a terrorist himself. Come on already.

Whip, you are correct in that not all the people on the right are saying this. There are even Republicans who are actively speaking out against it, such as John Weaver (McCain's former top strategist - see my signature below) and even McCain himself. My fellow Dems here would do well to acknowledge this fact (you know who you are).

The problem is that there are those on the right who are whipping people up into a frenzy that "Obama is a terrorist." It is undeniable that this very thing is happening, and it has been repeatedly verified in numerous news accounts as well as on Youtube...

The McCain-Palin Mob

Ayres is a piece of garbage, and anyone with any sense should condemn what he did strongly. I hate to see that so many seem to think he's just not that big of a deal. He's the same as Timothy McVeigh. Just that he's on the left.

I see no one here arguing with you on that point. Ayers is a scumbag, imo. And, for the record, Obama has strongly condemned Ayers for his actions.

If McCain was in any way assocaited with someone who had bombed abortion clinics, even if it was 40 years ago, you guys would be going ape **** crazy about it, and you know it.

What do you mean by "associated"? That's a big part of the problem here, no one specifically defines "associated" - it's just left up to people to allow the darker sides of their nature to fill in those blanks, and that's why the dangerous mob mentality at some of these McCain/Palin rallies has festered into full-blown rage.

Again, I give credit to McCain for attempting to quell the rage, but I fear the damage has already been done. McCain will likely pay for it politically, since some of the really hardcore right-wing nutters will pull support from him for "defending Obama the terrorist", but he's doing the right thing. I'm just afraid that by now it is too late - the raging mob-meme that "Obama is a terrorist" has taken on a life of its own and won't be controlled by anyone, including John McCain.

If it happened on my side, I'd also speak out against it (I have spoken out against such things in the past, in fact). This kind of crap has no place in our political process - it just doesn't.

 

[MattusMaximus]

McCain Tries to Tame Flames He Earlier Fanned



As I said earlier, props to McCain for attempting to undo the damage. It is the greatest contribution he can now give to his country.

Sadly, the comments left on that site don't leave me feeling too hopeful. There is so much hate & vitriol being spewed on all sides: some continue calling Obama a terrorist, while others call McCain a Nazi-sympathizer. What a bunch of bull****!!!

I'm going to go get drunk.

 

[Ausmerican]

If McCain was in any way assocaited with someone who had bombed abortion clinics, even if it was 40 years ago, you guys would be going ape **** crazy about it, and you know it.

Here ya go Whip:

– Voting against making anti-choice violence a federal crime. As the Jed Report notes, McCain voted in 1993 and 1994 against making “bombings, arson and blockades at abortion clinics, and shootings and threats of violence against doctors and nurses who perform abortions” federal crimes.

– Opposing Colorado’s “Bubble Law.” McCain said he opposed Colorado’s “Bubble Law,” which prohibited abortion protesters from getting within 8 feet of women entering clinics [Denver Post, 2/27/00]. The law was later upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court.

– Voting to allow those fined for violence at clinics to avoid penalties by declaring bankruptcy. NARAL Pro-Chioce America notes that McCain “voted to allow perpetrators of violence or harassment at reproductive-health clinics to avoid paying the fines assessed against them for their illegal acts by declaring bankruptcy.”

By the Ayers standards that is practically supporting domestic terrorism. You see anyone here starting threads on it? Much less multiples?

 

[zakur]

If McCain was in any way assocaited with someone who had bombed abortion clinics, even if it was 40 years ago, you guys would be going ape **** crazy about it, and you know it.

Oh, there are plenty of "questionable associations" in McCain's past. More than Obama:

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/McCain_connections_coming_back_to_haunt_1007.html

http://www.democrats.com/mccain-guilt-by-association

http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/steve_chapman/2008/10/mccain-has-his.html

 

[Puppycow]

McCain drops 'Who is Barack Obama?' from his stump speech

I think he realized that down this road lies madness. The wingnuts will be more than happy to provide a ridiculous over-the-top answer (islamic terrorist flag-burning commie traitor) to that open-ended question.

 

[Magyar]

It's just typical right wing smear. Now that the word is out there and has a life of it's own, it's mission accomplished. McCain and Palin can play ALL INNOCENT - "Oh we've been discouraging all this talk every since we've become aware of it?" And all the pundits can now point to McCain telling the loony nutter that Obama is not an aaaarab, he's a nice family man"

What a pile of HORSESH8. Like EVERYONE didn't know from DAY ONE that there are already a fair number of crazies out there who would and did come up with all of this stuff on Obama simply because he is black.

What McCain did here is not, if at all, much different then the typical hate group leaders, who claim free speach protection after one of their followers goes out and lynches a black man.

 

[EGarrett]

I'm still shocked that someone got on a microphone in front of the public...said something stupid and ignorant...and someone else actually took the microphone away and said no.

What's the world coming to?

 

[PixyMisa]

Don't say "no one on the right". Were that all of the Right were in agreement with you here. Sadly, some are calling Obama a terrorist.

And plenty on the left say the same of George Bush. I don't see your point, apart from the fact that some people are idiots.

As for his judgment, well, I cannot see that he has done anything that indicates he is taking advice from Ayers or from Wright for that matter. You shouldn't be tainted from just being in the same room with a "bad person".

How about if you launch your political career in the living room of the bad person? How about if you serve on the board of a foundation with the bad person for years, while frittering away $100 million?

Obama has really poor judgement in the people he associates with, and no-one has ever questioned him on it before. Only the attention of the media got him to separate himself from Reverend Wright, and Wright is only an unapologetic racist, not an unapologetic terrorist.

 

[chipmunk stew]

And plenty on the left say the same of George Bush. I don't see your point, apart from the fact that some people are idiots.


How about if you launch your political career in the living room of the bad person? How about if you serve on the board of a foundation with the bad person for years, while frittering away $100 million?

Obama has really poor judgement in the people he associates with, and no-one has ever questioned him on it before. Only the attention of the media got him to separate himself from Reverend Wright, and Wright is only an unapologetic racist, not an unapologetic terrorist.

I wouldn't have pegged you as a Kool-Aid drinker, PM. Just goes to show you, you never really know a guy you only know on the internet.

 

[Ausmerican]

How about if you launch your political career in the living room of the bad person? How about if you serve on the board of a foundation with the bad person for years, while frittering away $100 million?

Obama has really poor judgement in the people he associates with, and no-one has ever questioned him on it before. Only the attention of the media got him to separate himself from Reverend Wright, and Wright is only an unapologetic racist, not an unapologetic terrorist.

Obama claims he didn't even know who Ayers was at that first meeting and I see no reason to disbelieve that. I had no idea who Ayers was until this whole thing was brought up, did you?

And what are you trying to say about serving on the board with him? This is one part of the argument I have never understood.

Are you saying Obama should have refused to serve on the board, put his goals and life on hold and not done any good he may have done on that board, just because he didn't approve of the past of someone else who was on it?

Perhaps he figured that since Ayers was by then a much lauded professor and no longer spending his weekends blowing up buildings and hiding from the feds he may be rehabilitated.

And where in all this is the criticism for Annenberg, the lifelong republican, the friend of Ronald Reagan, the guy who gave Ayers and others the money to set up this board?
Is this guy therefore a financial supporter of terrorists?
So then Reagan is a friend of a financial supporter of terrorists?
So then McCain greatly admires above all others the friend of a financial supporter of terrorists?
But wait, Annenbergs widow is a McCain supporter. So then the same money that was behind Ayers is behind McCain!
Do you see how stupid this whole association game is?

 

[Tricky]

And plenty on the left say the same of George Bush. I don't see your point, apart from the fact that some people are idiots.

Of course. There are plenty of idiots on both sides. I was questioning Whiplash's assertion (probably rhetorical) that "nobody on the right was saying (Obama) is an enemy of the state."

How about if you launch your political career in the living room of the bad person? How about if you serve on the board of a foundation with the bad person for years, while frittering away $100 million?

I do not believe that this is true of Obama. I have seen no evidence to support the contention that Obama had his headquarters in Ayer's living room, unless you are saying that any place you had a fundraiser is where you "launched your political career". Surely you would not make such a claim.

Obama has really poor judgement in the people he associates with, and no-one has ever questioned him on it before. Only the attention of the media got him to separate himself from Reverend Wright, and Wright is only an unapologetic racist, not an unapologetic terrorist.

I think there is ample evidence to show that this is incorrect. In fact, the Ayers stuff is recycled from his battle with Clinton. It was questioned months ago. At that time, the questions were found by most people and by every independant fact-checker I've seen, to be without merit. They still are.

 

[Freddy]

Quite possible that McCain realizes he's going to lose, and that he really does care about the country. He's right about an Obama Presidency not being something to fear, and I respect him saying it. At this point it's clear to me that Obama's going to win barring something crazy happening. He's going to have a lot of problems to deal with. I certainly don't envy him. I just hope he governs from the center, because if he doesn't the honeymoon may not last long. It may be better for the Republicans if Obama is a disaster as President, but I can't in good conscience hope for that.

 

[Freddy]

Of course. There are plenty of idiots on both sides. I was questioning Whiplash's assertion (probably rhetorical) that "nobody on the right was saying (Obama) is an enemy of the state."


I do not believe that this is true of Obama. I have seen no evidence to support the contention that Obama had his headquarters in Ayer's living room, unless you are saying that any place you had a fundraiser is where you "launched your political career". Surely you would not make such a claim.


I think there is ample evidence to show that this is incorrect. In fact, the Ayers stuff is recycled from his battle with Clinton. It was questioned months ago. At that time, the questions were found by most people and by every independant fact-checker I've seen, to be without merit. They still are.

I'd guess that Obama agrees with some of Ayers' views, and probably with some of his out of the mainstream views, particularly on education (see Annenburg Challenge). I think that he has minimized his relationship with Ayers to the point of not quite telling the whole truth, but I really don't think it's that big of a deal. Obama isn't the one who should have to answer for Ayers being accepted as a leader of the Hyde Park community. I think the Ayers is a terrible person, but his status as part of the mainstream reflects poorly on the Hyde Park and community and whoever makes hiring decisions where Ayers teaches. It doesn't reflect on Obama.

I don't for a second believe that Obama condones violence as a means of political expression, and though I think it is safe to say that Ayers hates America, I have no doubt that Obama loves America. I've pretty much accepted that Obama will be the next President, and although I consider him unproven and a risk, I do think he has potential to be a pretty good President.