INTELLIGENT DESIGN vs Non-intelligent/materialistic evolution

[paximperium]

Logic, logic logic...I can't think of the guy who was the most famous atheist at Oxford for years and years before Dawkins but he changed his mind and became an advocate for intelligent design after he learned about DNA.

He realized that anything so incredibly complex couldn't have possibly just "happened" over time.

So?

It's like the totally disassembled wristwatch putting itself back together, WITHOUT ANY INTELLIGENT DIRECTION.

Thanks for ignoring the multitide of posts that has torn this retarded argument apart. It shows how dishonest you are. How is this analogous to anything in nature?

It simply can't happen! It's illogical to assume it can.

Actually it could. Not very likely but it could. Why are you being so closed minded? It is illogical.

That's my problem with smart-asses like DAWKINS. He just loves being able to use his high powered brain and personality to get sheeple to believe that ORDER doesn't necessarily require intelligent direction. It's illogical and absurd!

The BWINWRIGHT UNANSWERED QUESTION (DODGE) LIST:
1) Justify and explain why order requires intelligence? Provide a mathematical proof or evidence to support his assertion.
2) Describe and explain the mechanism for how "god" directs ID or evidence for ID.
3) How exactly is natural selection intelligently guided? If it's THE controversial point, it's something we should know.
4) Name at least one observed instance of the design process in action.
5) Propose a way in which intelligent design can be experimentally tested.

I am amazed this is still an argument.

No I'm not. There is people like you around.

 

[bwinwright]

[qimg]http://rationalrevolution.net/images/snowflake.jpg[/qimg]

It's particularly annoying when the religious belief that the universe as a whole appears to be a created object is mixed up with the pseudoscientific stuff about it being impssible for natural processes to create complex objects (rebutted above). It's a sleazy trick to try to make what's being argued unclear. Buckley was either deliberately mixing up two entirely different subjects, or he was too fuzzy-minded to appreciate the difference.

What I find particularly annoying is your use of Masaru Emoto's research without having a clue about what he found. Google it and see what an incredible boob you are.

He found that water crystals, blessed or charged with words like LOVE, PEACE, JOY, etc would form these beautiful, perfect patterns when frozen yet would form really imperfect looking crystals when charged with words of fear, hate,etc.

So, you see, it appears that MATTER is subject to thoughts and emotions.
This idea of intelligent design is the only "plausible" explanation for evolution and natural selection. Check out EMOTO and have faith in a higher intelligence.

 

[RandFan]

This idea of intelligent design is the only "plausible" explanation for evolution and natural selection.

Not true. ID is not parsimonious.

"I have no need of that hypothesis." --Pierre Simon Laplace

 

[RandFan]

Check out EMOTO and have faith in a higher intelligence.

Why?

Water crystal work and criticism

Commentators have criticized Emoto for insufficient experimental controls,[3] and for not sharing enough details of his approach with the scientific community. [4] In addition, Emoto has been criticized for designing his experiments in ways that leave them open to human error influencing his findings. [5]

The guy can't get past peer review. Where's the replicated experiments?

 

[paximperium]

What I find particularly annoying is your use of Masaru Emoto's research without having a clue about what he found. Google it and see what an incredible boob you are.

He found that water crystals, blessed or charged with words like LOVE, PEACE, JOY, etc would form these beautiful, perfect patterns when frozen yet would form really imperfect looking crystals when charged with words of fear, hate,etc.

So, you see, it appears that MATTER is subject to thoughts and emotions.
This idea of intelligent design is the only "plausible" explanation for evolution and natural selection. Check out EMOTO and have faith in a higher intelligence.

NO he did not; as has been pointed out multiple times and which you blindly continue to ignore. What are you? Some EMOTO sheeple?

Research? Didn't know all pictures of snowflakes belong to Emoto.

 

[RandFan]

NO he did not; as has been pointed out multiple times and which you blindly continue to ignore. What are you? Some EMOTO sheeple?

Research? Didn't know all pictures of snowflakes belong to Emoto.

He ignores scores and scores or replicated and peer reviewed experiments that demonstrate evolution to latch onto this nonsense.

That takes a special kind of willful ignorance that I couldn't stomach. That's why I'm no longer an ID proponent.

 

[paximperium]

He ignores scores and scores or replicated and peer reviewed experiments that demonstrate evolution to latch onto this nonsense.

That takes a special kind of willful ignorance that I couldn't stomach. That's why I'm no longer an ID proponent.

I've never had an issue with Intelligent Design as a personal philosophy. Many theists believe in evolution but belief that their deity guides it.

HOWEVER the big difference is that these personal believers keep their beliefs private. They do not force their beliefs as science. They do not demand others believe them. They do not lie to support their beliefs.

PS: Glad to see you saw the "light".

 

[Gate2501]

Emoto is NOT a scientist, and does NOT apply scientific method to his research and experiments. He has even openly admitted that he chooses the "pictures" of his water based on how pleasing they are to look at.

Emoto is silly.

EDIT: I just did a little more digging into Emoto and the guy is really REALLY silly. He believes that the reason that water supposedly does this, it because when a person dies and cannot "move on" (GO INTO THE LIGHT CAROL ANN), their soul remains on earth as water...

 

[RandFan]

I've never had an issue with Intelligent Design as a personal philosophy. Many theists believe in evolution but belief that their deity guides it.

HOWEVER the big difference is that these personal believers keep their beliefs private. They do not force their beliefs as science. They do not demand others believe them. They do not lie to support their beliefs.

I agree with that. If a person wants to believe that god is behind evolution then that's fine. And I agree with you about the "lie" part. To argue against evolution requires dishonesty once a person learns the facts. There's just too much evidence.

PS: Glad to see you saw the "light".

I want to track down my biology teacher at the University of Utah (a secular institution BTW) and apologize. I had just returned from a mission and had a small collection of creation science books. I didn't know what ID was then. I used to give my professor hell with all of the "evolution is just a theory" nonsense. I have to say, he was very patient with me. More patient than I would have been.

In all honesty, how does one even understand biology without evolution?

Heavy Metal-Eating "Superworms" Unearthed in U.K.

"These worms seem to be able to tolerate incredibly high concentrations of heavy metals, and the metals seem to be driving their evolution,"...

DNA analysis of lead-tolerant worms living at Cwmystwyth, Wales, show they belong to a newly evolved species that has yet to be named, he said.

What's the ID version of this?

 

[paximperium]

What's the ID version of this?

God/Creator/Intelligence did it. End of discussion.

 

[RandFan]

God/Creator/Intelligence did it. End of discussion.

Yeah, and then there is that idea that there is evolution just to a certain extent. Noah took one kind of cat into the ark and that cat evolved into every kind of cat from Lions to Lynx.

The heavy metal eating worms are still worms. When evolutionists find the ever elusive crockaduck then we will have our proof. Just ask Kirk Cameron. The brain trust of the ID movement.

 

[paximperium]

Yeah, and then there is that idea that there is evolution just to a certain extent. Noah took one kind of cat into the ark and that cat evolved into every kind of cat from Lions to Lynx.

What's funny about that is that the rate of evolution to allow for the variety of life to come from the animals of Noah's Ark would be at a rate much faster than evolution could comprehend. In essence we would see evolution at such a rate that we would actually see an untold number evidence of speciation that Creationist deny exist.

The heavy metal eating worms are still worms. When evolutionists find the ever elusive crockaduck then we will have our proof. Just ask Kirk Cameron. The brain trust of the ID movement.

If and when we find the crockaduck to "support" evolution, we would have actually completely overturned it...but that's too much logic for these ID-iots and Creationists.

 

[RandFan]

What's funny about that is that the rate of evolution to allow for the variety of life to come from the animals of Noah's Ark would be at a rate much faster than evolution could comprehend. In essence we would see evolution at such a rate that we would actually see an untold number evidence of speciation that Creationist deny exist.

If and when we find the crockaduck to "support" evolution, we would have actually completely overturned it...but that's too much logic for these ID-iots and Creationists.

ID is truly a mindfield to try and defend. You are absolutely correct. crockaduck is not predicted by evolution anymore than a dog with the head of a mastiff and the body of a chihuahua is predicted and they are of the same species.

 

[I Ratant]

Oops. My bad.
Didn't notice the OPer before clicking on the title.

 

[Frozenwolf150]

What I find particularly annoying is your use of Masaru Emoto's research without having a clue about what he found. Google it and see what an incredible boob you are.

He found that water crystals, blessed or charged with words like LOVE, PEACE, JOY, etc would form these beautiful, perfect patterns when frozen yet would form really imperfect looking crystals when charged with words of fear, hate,etc.

So, you see, it appears that MATTER is subject to thoughts and emotions.
This idea of intelligent design is the only "plausible" explanation for evolution and natural selection. Check out EMOTO and have faith in a higher intelligence.

So does this mean your above claims were charged with words like "drool," "belch," and "flatulence" when they crystallized?

 

[six7s]

ID is truly a mindfield to try and defend.

Head asplodes

 

[Frozenwolf150]

Head asplodes

No, no, if you're going to say "head asplodes" you've got to include the corresponding picture.



(Made from screenshots from Bionic Commando in case anyone's been wondering.)

 

[Brian-M]

Logic, logic logic...I can't think of the guy who was the most famous atheist at Oxford for years and years before Dawkins but he changed his mind and became an advocate for intelligent design after he learned about DNA.

Would you like me to look up references for influential creationists who became advocates for evolution after learning about DNA? I'm sure we could compare lists and tally the results, not that it would make any difference. Reality is not a popularity contest.

He realized that anything so incredibly complex couldn't have possibly just "happened" over time. It's like the totally disassembled wristwatch putting itself back together, WITHOUT ANY INTELLIGENT DIRECTION. It simply can't happen! It's illogical to assume it can. That's my problem with smart-asses like DAWKINS. He just loves being able to use his high powered brain and personality to get sheeple to believe that ORDER doesn't necessarily require intelligent direction. It's illogical and absurd!

I am amazed this is still an argument.

I too am amazed this is still an argument.
(I'm referring to the watch example.)

Complex organic molecules have been shown to self-assemble without any intelligent direction. This "ORDER" occurs entirely through natural processes.

The laws of physics on a molecular level are very different from the laws of physics on a larger scale. Unlike the parts of a watch, atoms and molecules can attach themselves to each-other and 'snap' into place without intelligent direction.

Your watch example falls to pieces. (Literally? )

ImaginalDisc, you are the perfect example of the type of mindlessness making me weary.

I'm sure the feeling is mutual.

My problem with people like Dawkins is they say, "I don't totally reject the idea of an intelligent designer, but I seriously doubt there is one, and there really isn't a need for one." To me that's absolute insanity, total dishonesty. All I'm trying to understand is how anyone can honestly believe that ORDER does not require intelligent direction. Now, as far as the nature of this intelligence, who the hell could possibly know. But to deny that it must exist is absolutely rediculous and totally illogical!!!!!!

So... not believing in a magical being for whom we have no evidence or valid logic for believing in, is ridiculous and illogical? I don't understand how you reach that conclusion. I truly don't.

Can you provide any valid line of reasoning to support the existence of this supreme being?

Hint: Not understanding how things could be as they are without some kind of supreme being is not evidence that a supreme being exists.

All I'm trying to understand is how anyone can honestly believe that ORDER does not require intelligent direction.

Conversely, I fail to understand how anyone believe that it's not possible for order to arise without intelligent direction. Westprog, and others have already addressed this concern.

For example...

I gave a well known example of an ordered structure being produced by natural means. I was actually complimented, and my observation was used as the springboard for another observation. But the actual point wasn't addressed in any way.

That was a picture of a snowflake - something that is complex, and is formed by entirely natural processes. The trillions of perfect, beautiful and complex structures that have been formed since the Earth was created show that intelligence is not required. It's certainly not necessary to have an emotional context for crystals to grow. They organise themselves. That physical processes use energy to create order in the universe is indeed how intelligence arises.

Do you even bother to read the responses to your posts?

Emoto is silly.

EDIT: I just did a little more digging into Emoto and the guy is really REALLY silly. He believes that the reason that water supposedly does this, it because when a person dies and cannot "move on" (GO INTO THE LIGHT CAROL ANN), their soul remains on earth as water...

Is Emoto actually his real name? Considering his "research" involves impressing water crystals with emotions, it seems likely a pseudonym to me.

 

[temporalillusion]

What I find particularly annoying is your use of Masaru Emoto's research without having a clue about what he found. Google it and see what an incredible boob you are.

He found that water crystals, blessed or charged with words like LOVE, PEACE, JOY, etc would form these beautiful, perfect patterns when frozen yet would form really imperfect looking crystals when charged with words of fear, hate,etc.

So find a picture of a snowflake from somewhere else.

Are you saying that every single snowflake that falls has been charged with words of love, peace, and joy? Are you claiming that snowflakes are all intelligently designed?

 

[Polgara]

Things to consider: paradoxes, antinomies, Venn sets, Alfred Bester and concepts regarding insanity.