What will Iran bomb first?

What place will Iran bomb first as retaliation?

  • Haifa

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Beer Sheva

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Eilat

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • America

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    41
Broadcasting time is a finite, costly resource. Before one is able to convince a media outlet to provide it, free of charge, one must establish significant public support. Before one is able to claim public campaign funding from the FEC, one must establish significant public support. Where third party candidates have been able to establish such support, they have consistently been granted debate time (e.g. Ross Perot in 1992).

Ross Perot had money.
Bet you have a chance of winning the elections in Iran too, with some billions in the bank

Poppycock. The former is an example of the law (and more particularly the regime or particular individuals that wrote the law) determining who can be elected. The latter, insofar as it pertains to the US, is an example of the voting population rejecting a given candidate.

The party people and the media people make only about 0.1% of the total American population, therefore, they do not represent the American population.
But, their influence is so big that, being rejected by them means, in practice, that you will be rejected by the US population

Democracy does NOT imply that every single candidate or philosophy will be given equal credence by a specific voting population.

Of course

If you are so phobic of the otherwise meaningless label that you are unwilling to comply with protections against attempts to foist untenable candidates upon the opposition, then no, you don't get to vote between that party's candidates in the primary (in states that even have such protections). One is otherwise free to register for one party as little as ten days before a primary (depending on state), then register back immediately after voting.

People would hate to do such a thing.
It means that you are a worm that change party according to your own practical needs

If one insults ANY person in ANY situation in ANY country, one risks offending those who may support or think highly of that individual. Bush has long enjoyed support amongst the religious right, which makes up a significant part of the Republican party's voting base. So what? One does not and should not win elections in a democracy by offending the voters.

OK.
Another example. If a candidate uses the ideas of Chomsky during a debate, he will be killed by the media.
Or the ideas of Naomi Klein. Media will represent that candidate very very badly.

Wrong. The oath the president must swear when he takes office is:

Furthermore, the constitution in the very first amendment states that:

I dunno.
No time to check now, but I take your word for that.
 
The system does not prevent people from running, but filters them.

Thank goodness for that. Otherwise I'd have to wade through tens of thousands of individuals come election time.

It is impossible for a candidate to win, even if he has the best program, if he has no support from the lobbies and the media attacking him.

Lobbies are not monolithic. If someone really has a great program, he'll be able to get support from at least some lobbies. And since many lobbies have explicitly contradictory purposes (NRA vs gun control, for example), nobody ever gets the support of all of them. And candidates have indeed won with the media attacking them.

If somebody would try to get elected with ideas similar to Noam Chomsky, he would be "killed" by the media instantly.

That's because Americans wouldn't like Chomsky's ideas, and so all the media would have to do is expose them.

And I think NC`s ideas are much more consistent with reality that both McCain`s or Obama`s.

I'm sure you do. American voters don't, which is the rather more relevant fact if you want to talk about how democratic we are.
 
Thank goodness for that. Otherwise I'd have to wade through tens of thousands of individuals come election time.

How does the system filters candidates?

Lobbies are not monolithic. If someone really has a great program, he'll be able to get support from at least some lobbies. And since many lobbies have explicitly contradictory purposes (NRA vs gun control, for example), nobody ever gets the support of all of them. And candidates have indeed won with the media attacking them.

Does not mean anything.
What does it mean "great program"?
"Great program", great for who?
If it is great for the interest of the people, but bad for some lobby, the lobby will work against the cancidate and nobody will work for the candidate, as people do not usually even get to know one candidate`s program before the candidate is already on many TV shows.
And, it is impossible to get on TV shows if you do not have some strong organization who supports you..

That's because Americans wouldn't like Chomsky's ideas, and so all the media would have to do is expose them.

What do you mean by "Americans"?
Have you personally asked all the 305 + million American citizens?
What do American people know about Chomsky`s ideas, in first place?
The media can make Einstein look like a dumb duck, if they want to.

I'm sure you do. American voters don't, which is the rather more relevant fact if you want to talk about how democratic we are.

Again, this is nonsense, as Americans have not even come to know Chomsky`s ideas, in first place.
 
McCain did so jokingly. It was in poor taste.


Thank you for the link. It helps to know the contest.

It is rather poor taste. Especially if you consider that when you want to be the president of the US everything you are going to say will be scrutinied. Still, it is not even in the ballpark of the Ahmadinejadspeech I have cited.
 
Does not mean anything.
What does it mean "great program"?
"Great program", great for who?

You tell me - you introduced it as a criteria.

If it is great for the interest of the people, but bad for some lobby, the lobby will work against the cancidate and nobody will work for the candidate,

Nonsense. As I already pointed out, there are competing lobbies. If it's great for "the people", it's going to be great for some subsets of "the people" which have lobbies. There are always some lobbies (not always the same ones) which oppose any candidate, so the idea that opposition from lobbies prevents election is simply absurd.

What do you mean by "Americans"?
Have you personally asked all the 305 + million American citizens?

Unlike you, I live in America. I have a sense of what most people think about things. There's only a minority which would like Chomsky. What on earth makes you think that he'd be popular?

Oh, that's right: you agree with him, ergo...
 
You tell me - you introduced it as a criteria.

[..]

Nonsense. As I already pointed out, there are competing lobbies. If it's great for "the people", it's going to be great for some subsets of "the people" which have lobbies. There are always some lobbies (not always the same ones) which oppose any candidate, so the idea that opposition from lobbies prevents election is simply absurd.

You assume that lobbies of interest are "symmetrical", but they are symmetrical only in your head.
They lobby of the oil producers that protect big oil companies is powerful.
The lobby of GreenPeace and other associations who protect the environment is probably not as strong.
This is as people who protect the environment are usually isolated and not so organized as the Big Oil.
This is just an example.
If two interests are one against the other, but one lobby is organized in a structure an has money, while the other is disorganized and fragmented, the first one is stronger.

Unlike you, I live in America. I have a sense of what most people think about things. There's only a minority which would like Chomsky. What on earth makes you think that he'd be popular?

Oh, that's right: you agree with him, ergo...

How many books of Chomsky have you read, in first place?
Also, this is not actually the point.
The point is people will not even be able to listen to his opinions, as the system will prevent people from listening.
 
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You assume that lobbies of interest are "symmetrical"

No, I assume they are diverse, and that they are not omnipotent. Nothing else is needed, and asymmetries can be (and are) overcome when voters actually like the ideas of a candidate.

If two interests are one against the other, but one lobby is organized in a structure an has money, while the other is disorganized and fragmented, the first one is stronger.

Yes. But if voters favor the ideas of the second one, it will still win.

Also, this is not actually the point.
The point is people will not even be able to listen to his opinions, as the system will prevent people from listening.

Nonsense. Anyone who is interested in Chomsky can rather easily listen to what he says. But most people aren't interested. TV coverage won't change that, just like broadcasting "Knitting for Retired Folks" on prime time won't turn crocheting into a national pasttime. Bemoan that all you want to, but the majority of the American public doesn't care about Chomsky, and won't care no matter how much coverage you provide him with.
 
FYI: Olmert visited Russia to hinder them selling missile defense systems that
would allow Iran to easily wipe off every attacking Airplane from the face of
the planet:

Russia backs away from Iran sale
[SIZE=-1]Jewish Telegraphic Agency, NY - 6 hours ago[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Russia appears to be backing away from a proposed sale of state-of-the-art anti-aircraft missiles to Iran. Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert raised the ...[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Medvedev Offers Olmert Support, but No Promises [SIZE=-1]Moscow News[/SIZE][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Israeli PM gets no promises on Russian arms sales [SIZE=-1]The Associated Press[/SIZE][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Russia fudges pledge not to sell S-300s to Iran [SIZE=-1]United Press International[/SIZE][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Reuters India - Xinhua[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]all 705 news articles »[/SIZE]
 
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No, I assume they are diverse, and that they are not omnipotent. Nothing else is needed, and asymmetries can be (and are) overcome when voters actually like the ideas of a candidate.

Yes. But if voters favor the ideas of the second one, it will still win.

Not necessarily.
Because:
1) voters go to vote for President/Congress one time every four years each;
2) when they choose one candidate, they choose them for all the issues, they can not vote selectively for different candidates for different issues, therefore, they usually pick the right candidate for the one, two issues that are more important for them (for example, the economy at the moment), but they leave out some other 30 issues in this choice
3) for each topic, where 95% of the public gets information from? The media. Controlling the media the system can control and push the opinion of 95% of the possible voters

Nonsense. Anyone who is interested in Chomsky can rather easily listen to what he says. But most people aren't interested. TV coverage won't change that, just like broadcasting "Knitting for Retired Folks" on prime time won't turn crocheting into a national pasttime. Bemoan that all you want to, but the majority of the American public doesn't care about Chomsky, and won't care no matter how much coverage you provide him with.

This is true in your mind, but not in practice.
95% of the people who come home tired after work, is not usually motivaed to get into a forum and discuss America`s foreign policy in the Middle East, or to spend money on books for that.
If they buy a book, they will buy some novel, if they watch television, they will watch some comedy and the news.
Once you control what is in the news, you basically control what 90% or more of the people know about many issues, and, therefore, you will control what they will vote for.
Even if 100% of the people who read Chomsky agree with what he says (and I agree that this is not going to happen), but the readers of Chomsky make up 0.001% of the total American population, that will not be a menace to the system.
By the way, I am using Chomsky here only as an example.
 
Thank you for the link. It helps to know the contest.

It is rather poor taste. Especially if you consider that when you want to be the president of the US everything you are going to say will be scrutinied. Still, it is not even in the ballpark of the Ahmadinejadspeech I have cited.


In the "Ahmadinejadspeech" you cited, where exactly made he a threat
towards Israeli People? :confused:
 
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In the "Ahmadinejadspeech" you cited, where exactly made a a threat
towards Israeli People? :confused:

Oliver, if you need help understanding the speech just let me know. I am busy now, but if you ask I will go over the speech for you sometime next week.
 
Oliver, if you need help understanding the speech just let me know. I am busy now, but if you ask I will go over the speech for you sometime next week.


Some direct quotes where he threatens Israel would do it, Doctor Evil.
 
Some direct quotes where he threatens Israel would do it, Doctor Evil.

OK then. I don't have the time to do this properly, but here are some of the quotes in the speech and my interpretation of them.

The Zionists are crooks.
Presenting his enemies as criminals, rather than as just political enemies. This is i) a recurring theme in anti-Semitic speech, ii) a political tool used to make violence easier to justify.

A small handful of Zionists, with a very intricate organization, have taken over the power centers of the world. According to our estimates, the main cadre of the Zionists consists of 2,000 individuals at most, and they have another 8,000 activists. In addition, they have several informants, who spy and provide them with intelligence information. But because of their control of power centers in the U.S. and Europe, and their control of the financial centers and the news and propaganda agencies, they spread propaganda as if they were the entire world, as if all the peoples supported them, and as if they were the majority ruling the world. That is a great lie – just like their Jewishness is a great lie.
Here he is propagating a conspiracy theory. The conspiracy theory that Jews have some illegitimate secret influence, and they control politics and economics, has a long history. I suggest you will read it.

Ahmadinejad blames some unnamed Zionists rather than Jews. But somehow, these Zionists are charged with the same charge that Jews were charged with. Curious, isn't it? Moreover, it seems that these Zionists claim to be Jews, and lie about this too? So lets face it, he really means Jews.

My opinion is that the Iranian president is a raging antisemitic. It is possible that he can stand Jews when they are nice and submissive, leading to his distinction between real and lying Jews. However, blaming the Jews is bad for public relations, so lets blame the Zionists instead. (Nudge, nudge, wink, wink, if you know what I mean.)

That is a great lie – just like their Jewishness is a great lie. They have no religion whatsoever. They are a handful of lying, power-greedy people who have no religion, who only want to take over all the peoples and countries, and to trample the rights of the peoples.
I am speculating here, as this part reminds me something from the looming tower, but that was related to Sunni Muslims and I am not sure whether I can extrapolate. I would value feedback from other people.

Why does Ahmadinejad claim that his enemies are not really religious. My interpretation is that this has theological reasons. Islam differentiates between the believers of religions such Christianity and Judaism and people who believe in many gods. The former are to be treated better. If Ahmadinejad manage to put 'the Zionists' at the latter group, maybe he can religiously justify a more violent approach to the issue.

Why did I mention violence. Well, the Muslim Brotherhood used this claim, of people who are not really religious, to justify violence against them. This first appeared as a justifications for killing fellow Muslims in Egypt during the 50's.

If you want to do something good in your lives, leave the land of Palestine, free it from your oppression and occupation. Carry on with your lives. You captivated [Jewish] people with your trickery and lies, and you brought them over there with false promises. You sent them to settlements in order to serve as your human shields, and you continue to perpetrate your crimes. Let me give you some advice: Enough. For 60 years, you have been doing ugly things and committing crimes – leave, and show remorse.

A few interesting points here. First, not the time frame - 60 years. So Ahmadinejad does not speak about the West Bank and Gaza, but rather on the creation of Israel itself. We also see what he may think these people should do, that is, leave. Ahmadinejad does not specify who should leave, but I seem to vaguely remember a letter he sent where he claimed that since the Holocaust was not the fault of the Palestinians, Europe should take 'its Jews' back. Maybe someone can find a link to this.

We also return to conspiracy land, and learn that the Jewish people are tricked by this unnamed Zionists. This is, of course, ********. I have highlighted this as he claims that the Jewish people serve as human shields for the 'unnamed conspirators'. He will refer to human shields, or innocents later. We now know their identity.

You've heard on the news that [the Zionists] established a network for kidnapping people. They kidnap oppressed, destitute, ignorant people from other countries, and bring them to the occupied lands to serve as human shields.
More conspiracy theory, and a crazy one at that. We have seen that the Human shields are the Jews in Israel. This weird paragraph refers to Jews immigrating to Israel. In Ahmadinejad, they are kidnapped! I can also say much about his depiction of Jewish immigrants as destitute and ignorant.

If the occupiers and invaders take ignorant people – even if they are innocent – and use them as human shields in order to carry out invasions, the [Palestinian] people, which is on the defensive, has to conduct resistance, even if it is against innocent people, who were brought to the scene without being aware of it.
Resistance is a phrase which have many meaning, but it commonly use to include terror attacks against civilians. Moreover, from the context of previous paragraph, we know who these human shields are, the Jews.

One last point, it is true that Ahmadinejad does say that it is the Palestinians are the ones who 'conduct resistance', and not Iran. This is consistent with current Iranian policy, of fighting by proxies, such as Ha mas and Hizbullah. However, the justification of violence against the Jewish people is there, and who knows, maybe Iran will decide to change this policy in the future.

This is a despicable speech. I have no other terms to describe it. This is a fairly clear instance of antisemitism, filled with conspiracy theories, and aimed at justifying violence against civilians. Oliver, I predict that you will wave all this out since Ahmadinejad do not advocate direct Iranian attack. Well, why should he? What can he gain, at the time when Iranian policy is war by proxy? In any case, I do hope that other used would find my analysis useful.
 
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Not necessarily.
Because:
1) voters go to vote for President/Congress one time every four years each;

Your cluelessness about American politics reveals itself. Congressmen are elected to two-year terms, not four-year terms.

3) for each topic, where 95% of the public gets information from? The media. Controlling the media the system can control and push the opinion of 95% of the possible voters

Why do you think politicians put out political adds? Because the public only pays attention to the media? Of course not.

By the way, I am using Chomsky here only as an example.

But it's a very instructive example. Chomsky doesn't get much attention because people don't agree with him. You can blame it all on a conspiracy of the media if you want to, but the reason for his lack of popular appeal is simply much more basic: his readership is low because most Americans won't read books whose outlooks they fundamentally disagree with.

And even to the extent that the media does have power (something which is in no way unique to the US but is common among all western democracies), it's not monolithic. That is in marked contrast to Iran: not only does the Guardian Council have absolute power in determining who can be elected, it is monolithic. So the idea that you have to consider Iran comparably democratic to the US is simply absurd. And yet, you persist in trying to form that argument. Why is that?
 
Not necessarily.
Because:
1) voters go to vote for President/Congress one time every four years each;
2) when they choose one candidate, they choose them for all the issues, they can not vote selectively for different candidates for different issues, therefore, they usually pick the right candidate for the one, two issues that are more important for them (for example, the economy at the moment), but they leave out some other 30 issues in this choice
3) for each topic, where 95% of the public gets information from? The media. Controlling the media the system can control and push the opinion of 95% of the possible voters

1 & 2) True, but the issue stances the candidates take will also be influenced by the people. If the majority of us are pro-gun, the lefty will shift his position slightly more to the center. If majority are pro-choice, the righty will tone down the anti-Roe v. Wade rhetoric, and may continue to do so in office.

The two-party system pushes each candidate to the middle, constantly. Evidence of this is the relatively close margins of victory in each election. If one or the other candidate refused to compromise the elections would be blowouts, and one of the parties would maintain a vast superiority for many decades. These two factors work off each other, ensuring narrow elections and mostly centrist candidates.

I'd change our system too for several reasons, but it's very democratic relative to an Iran, and does include a process by which third-party views will be coopted by the majors.

3) Our media is capitalist and not state-controlled, they will not even suffer being influenced if it doesn't earn them profit and ratings; as such they need to draw an audience. There's always a push-pull between what the media would like us to like and what we actually like...but most faults with our media are due to our general populace. In this chicken-egg scenario, the people come first, and the media follows. Sometimes the media tries an experiment and the public follows, but these are exceptions within the decades of the media conforming to the viewers.

You're arguing the effects of our democracy, but it is a very free democracy. Obviously a lot freer than Iran, as well as maintaining itself as such for centuries longer than Iran's current incarnation.

Anti-Iran demagogues are usually wrong too about how heavily they call Iran undemocratic. But the truth is somewhere between what they argue and what you argue here. Ahmadinejad is not a dictator, and was elected relatively narrowly by a free, inclusive vote. The issue is that the list of candidates was overly controlled by the ruling Council of Guardians. And of course that the President's power is more puppet than real. And these are serious issues, as well as the CoG's outlawing of political parties, and obviously the inability to have direct elections for their seats.

On a democracy scale I'd say the US is about a 9, Iran about a 4.
 
OK then. I don't have the time to do this properly, but here are some of the quotes in the speech and my interpretation of them.


Presenting his enemies as criminals, rather than as just political enemies. This is i) a recurring theme in anti-Semitic speech, ii) a political tool used to make violence easier to justify.


Here he is propagating a conspiracy theory. The conspiracy theory that Jews have some illegitimate secret influence, and they control politics and economics, has a long history. I suggest you will read it.

Ahmadinejad blames some unnamed Zionists rather than Jews. But somehow, these Zionists are charged with the same charge that Jews were charged with. Curious, isn't it? Moreover, it seems that these Zionists claim to be Jews, and lie about this too? So lets face it, he really means Jews.

My opinion is that the Iranian president is a raging antisemitic. It is possible that he can stand Jews when they are nice and submissive, leading to his distinction between real and lying Jews. However, blaming the Jews is bad for public relations, so lets blame the Zionists instead. (Nudge, nudge, wink, wink, if you know what I mean.)


I am speculating here, as this part reminds me something from the looming tower, but that was related to Sunni Muslims and I am not sure whether I can extrapolate. I would value feedback from other people.

Why does Ahmadinejad claim that his enemies are not really religious. My interpretation is that this has theological reasons. Islam differentiates between the believers of religions such Christianity and Judaism and people who believe in many gods. The former are to be treated better. If Ahmadinejad manage to put 'the Zionists' at the latter group, maybe he can religiously justify a more violent approach to the issue.

Why did I mention violence. Well, the Muslim Brotherhood used this claim, of people who are not really religious, to justify violence against them. This first appeared as a justifications for killing fellow Muslims in Egypt during the 50's.



A few interesting points here. First, not the time frame - 60 years. So Ahmadinejad does not speak about the West Bank and Gaza, but rather on the creation of Israel itself. We also see what he may think these people should do, that is, leave. Ahmadinejad does not specify who should leave, but I seem to vaguely remember a letter he sent where he claimed that since the Holocaust was not the fault of the Palestinians, Europe should take 'its Jews' back. Maybe someone can find a link to this.

We also return to conspiracy land, and learn that the Jewish people are tricked by this unnamed Zionists. This is, of course, ********. I have highlighted this as he claims that the Jewish people serve as human shields for the 'unnamed conspirators'. He will refer to human shields, or innocents later. We now know their identity.


More conspiracy theory, and a crazy one at that. We have seen that the Human shields are the Jews in Israel. This weird paragraph refers to Jews immigrating to Israel. In Ahmadinejad, they are kidnapped! I can also say much about his depiction of Jewish immigrants as destitute and ignorant.


Resistance is a phrase which have many meaning, but it commonly use to include terror attacks against civilians. Moreover, from the context of previous paragraph, we know who these human shields are, the Jews.

One last point, it is true that Ahmadinejad does say that it is the Palestinians are the ones who 'conduct resistance', and not Iran. This is consistent with current Iranian policy, of fighting by proxies, such as Ha mas and Hizbullah. However, the justification of violence against the Jewish people is there, and who knows, maybe Iran will decide to change this policy in the future.

This is a despicable speech. I have no other terms to describe it. This is a fairly clear instance of antisemitism, filled with conspiracy theories, and aimed at justifying violence against civilians. Oliver, I predict that you will wave all this out since Ahmadinejad do not advocate direct Iranian attack. Well, why should he? What can he gain, at the time when Iranian policy is war by proxy? In any case, I do hope that other used would find my analysis useful.


There is not a single threat in your quotes - other than strongly disliking
Zionists, which isn't a surprise given his side of the isle. Try again.
 
There is not a single threat in your quotes - other than strongly disliking
Zionists, which isn't a surprise given his side of the isle. Try again.

I should have known that any attempt at rational discussion is bound to be futile.
 
I should have known that any attempt at rational discussion is bound to be futile.


I thought the same - because you have no point at all if there is no threat.
You know, the "Ahmadinejad-Holocaust-Nuke-Israel-Genocide"-type of threat
US politicians, Pro-Israel groups and some rapture-nuts are spewing all the time.

It does not exist ... one big, ridiculous exaggeration.
 
Your cluelessness about American politics reveals itself. Congressmen are elected to two-year terms, not four-year terms.

Why so aggressive?
I think that does not change the concept I was trying to expose.

Why do you think politicians put out political adds? Because the public only pays attention to the media? Of course not.

They put ads, in order to "bribe" newpapers. Newspapers who get hundreds of dollars from one candidate will hardly speak badly about him.

But it's a very instructive example. Chomsky doesn't get much attention because people don't agree with him. You can blame it all on a conspiracy of the media if you want to, but the reason for his lack of popular appeal is simply much more basic: his readership is low because most Americans won't read books whose outlooks they fundamentally disagree with.

And even to the extent that the media does have power (something which is in no way unique to the US but is common among all western democracies), it's not monolithic. That is in marked contrast to Iran: not only does the Guardian Council have absolute power in determining who can be elected, it is monolithic. So the idea that you have to consider Iran comparably democratic to the US is simply absurd. And yet, you persist in trying to form that argument. Why is that?

You do not seem to see that, while there are major difference between North America (and Europe) and Iran, they are not so big.
I do not even argue if Americans like or not Chomsky`s ideas, or if Chomsky has a grasp on things.
I have told you that the media are not willing to report ideas outside from the main-stream view of foreign policy. The same happens in Iran.
If a person, a politician, or so, happens to have ideas in contrast with the main-stream view of "war-on-terror", "corporate policy", etc. then, the media will not give him much space on television, so the large part of the American public will not even come to get to know him/her
 

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