Bill Henson Photos: Child Pornography or Art?

[BillyJoe]

The point is that parents would be told about politicians visiting the school...

Well, it would be news wouldn't it.
But would they be told about each and every individual who visits the school?

...they weren't about Henson.

Weren't they?
Should they have been?
And as far as I know the facts of the case are still to emerge.

Wonder why?

No. Do you?

I heard the Jodie Foster story in a radio interview, but haven't checked it.

I willing to bet you were mistaken.

Talking about not checking things, examples of the "vocal minority".

http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/poll/display/1,22053,5036195-5001021-1,00.html

www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/poll/display/0,22621,5036217-5006301-1,00.html

I could go on.

Phone in polls are very unreliable for a start.
The way the question was asked in one of these polls almost begs for a negative reply. The morally outraged minority would be more likely to respond to such a poll than those supportive of Bill Henson. Personally, I wouldn't dignify either poll with a reply.

 

[BillyJoe]

None of that gives him the right to walk around primary schools looking for children to photograph naked.

You are assuming facts that you cannot know are true.
And you are using loaded language which cannot be justified in the circumstances.

 

[BillyJoe]

You say that but http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgin_Killer has turned up in at least one collection of child porn images (it gets mentioned in passing in a senate report).

So we should not do or create anything in case someone somewhere misrepresents it?

 

[lionking]

Regarding the polls, with 85% and 92% disapproval it is hard to argue that it is a minority opposed to Henson's appearance at the primary school. Others show the same general trend.

 

[NobbyNobbs]

And the knee-jerk morally-outraged minority is at it again.
http://www.crikey.com.au/Politics/20081006-Faris-Henson-child-pornographer.html#comments

From the article...

Bill Henson makes a lot of money photographing n-ked or semi-n-ked pre-pubescent children. This is called Art by the Left glitterati. Most decent Australians would call it P-rnography. It is a matter of debate as to which side of the line we place Henson.

At first I found this very funny, because I thought that these folks were so uptight that they can't even bring themselves to spell out words like "naked", "pornography", "nude", and "sexual".

It has now occurred to me, though, that this might have been done for filter purposes.

I wouldn't count on it though. I give it even odds.

 

[gtc]

Bearing in mind that he was accompanied by the school principal at all times,

Was he? The articles I read didn't seem to say either way.

You are assuming facts that you cannot know are true.

Prey tell what facts I am assuming.

And you are using loaded language which cannot be justified in the circumstances.

Like what?

At first I found this very funny, because I thought that these folks were so uptight that they can't even bring themselves to spell out words like "naked", "pornography", "nude", and "sexual".

It has now occurred to me, though, that this might have been done for filter purposes.

I wouldn't count on it though. I give it even odds.

Crikey started as an email news service. They have had quite a few problems with filters rejecting their emails; hence the words. Why would you think that they couldn't bring themselves to use the words?

 

[BillyJoe]

I was responding to the claim that those opposing Henson scouting for talent in primary schools were a vocal, knee-jerk minority. These polls (and many others like them) seem to demonstrate the opposite.

Bill Henson had been exhibiting his art for decades until suddenly someone with a cause (Hetty Johnson) used him in attempt to further that cause, regardless of any harm to either him or the children who posed for him. She sucessfully beat up a storm in the media, abetted by our dismal collection of politicians.

In these circumstances, these polls cannot be a true indication of the public's attitude. However, if they are correct, it is a sad reflection on either their unhealthy attitudes towards children or their lack of appreciation of art, or both.

 

[gtc]

Appeal to the popularity can be a fallacy. So can the argument that something has been going on for decades without complaint.

 

[BillyJoe]

Is our need (desire) to see naked children in public venues more important than any potential harm?

Both "need" and "desire" are words that reflect neither the artist nor those who appreciate his art. A "need" or "desire" to see photographs of nude children is an unheathy misuse of that form of art.

However, when an opportunity for my child came up to try out for a commercial I chose not to because I'm concerned about that industry and think it causes more likely to cause harm than good.

Did your children really want to be involved or was it just one of those things they might do. It makes a difference. Jodie Foster really wanted to act in Taxi Driver and she regards it now as the major highlight of her acting career. Would you have denied her this? Would you have stifled her art?

Again, I don't know. Perhaps children shouldn't be in the public eye but I seriously doubt that is even worthy of consideration. Nude photos? I think a line could be safely drawn without worry of a slippery slope.

There is nothing intrinsically wrong with child nudity.
If you think so, you are not thinking like the children who pose in those photographs and the artist who turns their photographs into pieces of art. Those children and those artists cannot be held responsible for that, and should not be held to ransom for it by those who think that way.

 

[lionking]

Bill Henson had been exhibiting his art for decades until suddenly someone with a cause (Hetty Johnson) used him in attempt to further that cause, regardless of any harm to either him or the children who posed for him. She sucessfully beat up a storm in the media, abetted by our dismal collection of politicians.

In these circumstances, these polls cannot be a true indication of the public's attitude. However, if they are correct, it is a sad reflection on either their unhealthy attitudes towards children or their lack of appreciation of art, or both.

How many times does it need to be said? The polls were not about his art, but about him walking around the grounds of a primary school, with children as young as 6, scouting for talent. And your comment that people who do not agree that he should be allowed to do that are unhealthy, is quite sad in my opinion.

 

[BillyJoe]

From the article...

At first I found this very funny, because I thought that these folks were so uptight that they can't even bring themselves to spell out words like "naked", "pornography", "nude", and "sexual".

It has now occurred to me, though, that this might have been done for filter purposes.

I wouldn't count on it though. I give it even odds.

It is done for filter purposes by "Crickey".

 

[The Fool]

Regarding the polls, with 85% and 92% disapproval it is hard to argue that it is a minority opposed to Henson's appearance at the primary school. Others show the same general trend.

Its a guaranteed disaproval question. "do you want people accessing schools and...." Its always safest to say no. What about football scouts? Should we keep them away because playing football could have a detrimental effect on the Child? Exposure to violence and situations where they are in the showers supervised by coaches....

People access our schools to search for talent all the time. Mostly tall skinny girls with large dark eyes Modelling agencies are famous for it. Does stories about controversy surrounding virtual child models sound familiar? These people trawl schools. Nobody objects.

This fine Photographer has the wolves of state control circling him. It sucks to be the test case but I think he will understand.

 

[BillyJoe]

Prey tell what facts I am assuming.

You said:
"None of that gives him the right to walk around primary schools looking for children to photograph naked."
You are assuming:
- that he saw it as a right to do whatever you think he did.
- that he walked around Primary Schools.
- that he was looking for chidren to photograph naked.

you are using loaded language

Like what?

You said:
"None of that gives him the right to walk around primary schools looking for children to photograph naked."
Your bias is showing in your use of words in reporting what you cannot know are the facts of the case.

 

[BillyJoe]

Appeal to the popularity can be a fallacy. So can the argument that something has been going on for decades without complaint.

But, in this case it is not, isn't it?

Bill Henson's art has been exhibited in public galleries here and overseas for decades and none of the public who have viewed his numerous photographs have ever complained untill one Hetty Johnson decided to use one of his photgraphs as a launching pad for her own feelings of moral outrage.

 

[BillyJoe]

How many times does it need to be said? The polls were not about his art, but about him walking around the grounds of a primary school, with children as young as 6, scouting for talent. And your comment that people who do not agree that he should be allowed to do that are unhealthy, is quite sad in my opinion.

I was just trying to explain to you why these polls are unreliable as a measure of public opinion. Others have tried as well.

If you insist though, perhaps I should create a poll asking the public if lionking should stop beating his wife. It's not really a question they could have any opinion on, is it? Yet, if I ran a story about a certain lionking and his long suffering wife, where do you think the publics' sympathies would lie?

 

[richardm]

Was he? The articles I read didn't seem to say either way.

Oddly enough, articles that are critical use words like "Invited" to describe the principal's actions:

Henson, whose artworks depict nude children, was invited by Ms Knight to walk around the school and select young models about 15 months ago.

And using the word "wander" makes it sound like she left him to wander around by himself:

THE school principal who allowed controversial photographer Bill Henson to wander the playground scouting for young models

Meanwhile, Articles that are more pro use words like "Escorted"

St Kilda Park Primary School council president David Myer said the school backed former principal Sue Knight who escorted Mr Henson around the school last year.

or Accompanied

Ms Knight accompanied Henson on his visit to the school, during which he pointed out two students he was interested in photographing.

Ms Knight then contacted their parents, giving them Henson's phone number.

Newspaper articles using loaded words to drive their stories? What will they think of next!

 

[lionking]

Its a guaranteed disaproval question. "do you want people accessing schools and...." Its always safest to say no. What about football scouts? Should we keep them away because playing football could have a detrimental effect on the Child? Exposure to violence and situations where they are in the showers supervised by coaches....

People access our schools to search for talent all the time. Mostly tall skinny girls with large dark eyes Modelling agencies are famous for it. Does stories about controversy surrounding virtual child models sound familiar? These people trawl schools. Nobody objects.

This fine Photographer has the wolves of state control circling him. It sucks to be the test case but I think he will understand.

Okay, so you think that it is not a majority opinion that Bill Henson should not walk around primary schools looking for talent. That's fair enough. Wrong however.

Please give me evidence of football scouts going to primary schools and, with the principal's agreement but not the parents', looking for football talent? This happens at football clinics, which are well publicised to the school community. And modelling agencies? One example would do.

But even if you could dredge up the one feral football coach looking at kick-to-kick with the approval of a principal, this does not excuse the behaviour of Henson and (particularly) the principal in question. He might be a fine photographer, but he should never have gone to a primary school without parents approval.

 

[lionking]

I was just trying to explain to you why these polls are unreliable as a measure of public opinion. Others have tried as well.

If you insist though, perhaps I should create a poll asking the public if lionking should stop beating his wife. It's not really a question they could have any opinion on, is it? Yet, if I ran a story about a certain lionking and his long suffering wife, where do you think the publics' sympathies would lie?

Now you are being ridiculous. Are you really suggesting that Henson did not go to the primary school looking for talent? And are you suggesting that the public should not have an opinion on this? You may not like it, but the majority opinion is not with you.

 

[lionking]

Oddly enough, articles that are critical use words like "Invited" to describe the principal's actions:



And using the word "wander" makes it sound like she left him to wander around by himself:



Meanwhile, Articles that are more pro use words like "Escorted"



or Accompanied


Newspaper articles using loaded words to drive their stories? What will they think of next!

Well if you read the article from David Marr's book which exposed this whole issue, Henson was introduced to the principal by mutual friends, but even so, what difference does it make if she knew of his "eminence" and invited him? Can't you at least concede that parents should have been advised? This is the main issue now, and the reason that the principal will be sanctioned in some way.

 

[richardm]

what difference does it make if she knew of his "eminence" and invited him?

The difference I'm noting is that the articles that are against Henson say that he was simply "invited" to "wander", which conjours up a different image of proceedings than do the articles that are more pro use and words like "escorted" and "accompanied".

Can't you at least concede that parents should have been advised? This is the main issue now, and the reason that the principal will be sanctioned in some way.

Honestly?

I don't have any problems with the way it was done:

Ms Knight accompanied Henson on his visit to the school, during which he pointed out two students he was interested in photographing.

Ms Knight then contacted their parents, giving them Henson's phone number.

I don't believe there would be an issue if it had been a footy scout or a movie casting agent - indeed I think most parents would be thrilled at the idea.

But of course Henson is neither of these things - he has long been a controversial figure and I think the principal should have realised that when this story came out she'd be pilloried.

Nevertheless I think the error of judgement was a political one rather than a child safety one, and I don't think she should suffer permanent damage because of it. But paedophilia is such a hot potato right now, I reckon there's no chance she'll come through it with her career intact.